Wikipedia:Spellin Fettle

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Walcome tae the Spellin Fettle. If ye're no fameeliar wi the wird fettle, it haes the follaein meanin for this page:

  • Tae pit richt, intae guid condeetion or wirkin order, tae mend, repair
  • Tae set aboot, teckle a job wi virr (see English here)

The revelations o a fair feck o leed inaccuracies haes led tae a nummer o wrang Scots spellins bein uised athort the Scots Wikipedie. This page is a dedicate space whaur fowk can threap aboot the spellins in the body o airticles, teetles o airticles an the banes o the wiki platform itsel for tae resolve thaim. The actions taen for tae sort thaim can be jottit doun an aw.

The purpose o the page isnae tae be the official arbiter on Scots spellin, but the (in Inglis) 'forum' for updatin the Style Haundbeuk o this Wiki. So mind that whitever is settled here disnae stop ye fae uisin a specific spellin in your personal use of Scots ootwith Scots Wikipedia.

Soorces for verification[eedit soorce]

The follaein is a list o reputit soorces that can be uised tae verify spellin in Scots.

That haes academic inpit:

Archives:

That ar active an community based:

  • Scots Wikipedia Editor Facebook Group [3]
  • Scots Language Forum on Facebook [4]

Collogue[eedit soorce]

Scots Online Dictionary is steidit on research. It's no a 'community' ettle. The author Andy Eagle haes written academic papers on Scots and haes been citit by respectit academics in the field. Jamie Smith (tauk) 08:25, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

In Spelling Scots By Jennifer Bann and John Corbett, Edinburgh University Press, 2015, it states "The most extensive contribution in the last category is Andy Eagle's insightful overview of Scots orthography, regularly updated (the version accessed for this volume is Eagle 2014), and it gives a more detailed survey of the range and impact of would be spelling-reformers than is possible within the scope of this chapter."
Also The Routledge Handbook of the English Writing System, Routledge, 2016 in the chapter about Scots is states "The contribution of activists to discussions of Scots orthography is surveyed in detail in an online article by Andy Eagle (2013)."
Nogger (tauk) 20:37, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

The Scots forms in Placenames in Scotland (from Scots Language Centre) raise a few issues.
The article Aiberdeen tells us its Aberdeen in Inglis. As the spelling Aberdeen predates the introductions of standard English to Scotland, in for example the 1640 Aberdeen records: "The haill crem stowpis in auld Aberdeen salbe brocht to the cross …", the spelling Aberdeen is arguably also perfectly good Scots. The Aber in Aberdeen being pronounced the same as the aber in caber. The respelling Aiberdeen seems a bit like respelling Druim na Drochaid as Drumnadrochit to show an English-speaker how it is pronounced.
Examples of other Place names that appear to be translations from Scots into phonetic pronunciation aids for English speakers are:
The Fruchy where spellings like Freuchy and Freuchie can be dated as far back as 1528.
Haaick where the spelling Hawick dates back to the early 1600s at least.
Gruinlaw where spellings like Greenlaw or Green Law date back to the early 1600s at least.
Among the other oddities are Saulcoats (Saltcoats) which any decent placename book will mention salt manufacturing and the workers houses known as Saut Cots, so unsurprisingly James Lumsden (1903) in 'Toorle', a drama, and other pieces mentions going "doun to 'Sautcots,' n'ar the sea!"
The Scots muir seems to have become the phonetic Central Scots mair throughout Scotland in places like Eskdalmair (Eskdalemuir) and the Lammermair Hills (Lammermmuir Hills). Additionally in the Mairfuit Hills (Moorfoot Hills) the fit seems to have become fuit simply because the ui in Scots words such as guid and puir matches oo in standard English, and although probably not etymologically law, that has for some reason been 'translated' to la in Mintla (Mintlaw) and Uplamair (Uplawmoor).
L-vocalisation is indicated in some Scots forms such Bingry (Ballingray) and Dabaittie (Dalbeattie) but not in others such as Ballmaclellan (Balmaclellan), where in 'Galloway Gossip' Mr Trotter tells us about "The Aul' Clachan an Ba'maclellan", and Balmairnie (Balmerino) where the 'Ordnance gazetteer of Scotland' mentions Ba'mernie. Nogger (tauk) 15:14, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

This contemporary document frae Aiberdeenshire Cooncil, gies the spellin o Aiberdeen as Aiberdeen in Doric. Regardless o spellin in the past this is the contemporary Doric spellin the nou. We're no the spellin polis, but we are the spellin detectives and its nice tae understand what influences leid evolution--Illandancient (tauk) 09:55, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
I don't see the relevance of how lead evolves here. Aiberlower is perhaps another curious place name example. Aberlour got its name from the Lour Burn. The Moray Synod in 1646 mentions " ... ane excommunicat persone, frequents ordinarlie the bounds of the presbyterie of Aberlour ...". In Scots 'ou' is pronounced [u] ('oo'). The [ʌu] ('ow') pronunciation looks very much like a standard English interpretation of the Scots spelling. Cf. Aberdour where "... the burn is pronounced /dur/ ... The old pronunciation, still occasionally heard, is /ˈebər dur/". Nogger (tauk) 20:33, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Process[eedit soorce]

In English:

  • If you see something add it to the 'Tae Dae' (to do) list.
  • From there they should be added to the Fettle section using the layout contained within the Collogue page, unknown parts can be left blank and added over time.
  • Once in the Fettle section any discussion or references should be added.
  • There is no set rule currently on when something should be settled (each example is going to be a bit different). Queries shouldn't be settled if there is a split in opinion. On queries where no external reference can be ascertained, we should seek professional academic input to advise.
  • There is also no set process for what action will be needed to resolve a settled spelling. It may require an admin to change wiki code, using a bot to replace, manual replacement to ensure grammar/usage is correct, or a combination of many actions.

Abbreviations uised:

  • CSD, meanin Concise Scots Dictionar
  • DSL, meanin online Dictionar o Scots Leid
  • Corpus, Scottish Corpus o Text an Speech
  • BNA, British Newspaper Archive
  • NLS, meanin 'National Library of Scotland' archive linked abuin
  • ESD, meanin Essential Scots Dictionary: Scots-English English-Scots

Tae Dae[eedit soorce]

Pit ony ideas ablo tae be leukit intae:

Uised the noo Page Count Shuid be Note
muive, muived (uised in wiki) 245 shift, shifted (or flit, flittit)
divided intae 21 dealt intae
each other, each one, each 1079 ilk ither, ilka ane, ilka
occasionally 197 whiles
which 8508 whilk John Tait says that whilk is obsolete in speak. Modren Scots uises that/as as relative pronouns, whit for interrogative anes.--weeSven (tauk) 15:54, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
Juistice 360 Justice Juist appears right, but not this word.

The Dictionary of the Scots Language under juist mentions "[I. and m.Sc. dʒøst, dʒyst, dʒɪst; ne.Sc. + dʒist; Kcd., Gall. + dʒust. For the phonetics, cf. Judge, Justice, Jupe, n.1, Jute.]" where under justice the North-East. forms jeestice is mentioned referring to §§ 37 and §§ 128. Nogger (tauk) 21:33, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

admeenistrative 3604 ? [5] According to the Dictionary of the Scots Language admeenister is the Sc. form of Eng. administer
lairgest 3741 mucklest; maist muckle [6]
soothren 2855 southern [7]

Soothren perhaps from sooth + ern subjected to metathesis but pronounced /′sʌðrən/. Nogger (tauk) 23:49, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

settled 520 sattlet [8] (Sattelt is the Scots wird as faur as I ken —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jsmith scot)

The Dictionary of the Scots Language has sattle but under settle mentions For Sc. forms see Sattle. Nogger (tauk) 17:47, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

contreibutions 147 Contributiouns? The Dictionary of the Scots Language includes the example "... sud contreebit to the needcessities o' the hoose." Nogger (tauk) 21:33, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
offeecial 7323 official According to the Dictionary of the Scots Language offeecial is the Gen.Sc. form of Eng. official. Nogger (tauk) 20:01, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
neebourheid 402 neighbourhood Nae 'ch' soond in neebor. Sae faur's I ken neebor disna hae the [e] pronunciation in airts that pronunces heid, deid etc. as [hed]. [ded] etc that the 'ei' spellin suggests [9] [10] --weeSven (tauk) 15:54, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Neebour plus -heid suffix. Nogger (tauk) 20:01, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

paceefic 653 Pacific The "ee" spellings probably represent what's described in the Dictionary of the Scots Language: "§ 45. Romance [i] — advice, fine, cry, sybo (an onion). When the Romance word came into Scots after this change was completed the ee [i] remains as in item, licence, oblige, liberal." [11] Also 1. as [i]: (1) in the stressed vowel of Romance words as civil, city, image, item, licence, minute, oblige, position, etc. (see Weekly Mag. (18 July 1771) 69 and P.L.D. § 45 and p. xliii), and in the ending -ise, as criticeese, idoleeze, etc., now obsol." [12] Nogger (tauk) 20:08, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
pheesical 690 physical
pheesicist 569 physicist
conteens 391 contains / haes? hauds? conteen cf. perteen Nogger (tauk) 00:00, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
consteetuency 314 constituency The "ee" spellings probably represent what's described in the Dictionary of the Scots Language: "§ 45. Romance [i] — advice, fine, cry, sybo (an onion). When the Romance word came into Scots after this change was completed the ee [i] remains as in item, licence, oblige, liberal." [13] Also 1. as [i]: (1) in the stressed vowel of Romance words as civil, city, image, item, licence, minute, oblige, position, etc. (see Weekly Mag. (18 July 1771) 69 and P.L.D. § 45 and p. xliii), and in the ending -ise, as criticeese, idoleeze, etc., now obsol." [14] Nogger (tauk) 20:08, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
subdiveesion 487 subdivision
addeetion 298 addition
Spaingie 3419 Spain
destricts 1813 ESD haes: destrick, kintra, airt
politeecian 1725 politician?
pairlament 1073 parliament (288 occurrences) (wid affect parliament, parliament's, parliamentar, parliamentarian, parliamentary, parliaments, pairlamentar, pairlamentarians, pairlamentary, pairlaments, pairliament, pairliamentar, pairliamentary an aa)
conteens 329 ? (being used as in English contain possible confusion with [15]) or just Broad Scots conteen? Nogger (tauk) 00:24, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
weeng, weenger, weengs, left-weeng, richt-weeng, weenged, weengless, weengspan, fixed-weeng 426 wing, winger, wings, left-wing, richt-wing, winged, wingless?, wingspan, fixed-wing
leeberal, leeberalism, leberals, leeberalisation 441 liberal? liberalism? liberals? liberalisation? According to the Dictionary of the Scots Language leeberal is the Gen.Sc. forms of Eng. liberal. Nogger (tauk) 20:08, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

"Scots Leeberal Democrats" is the official owerset o the Scottish Liberal Democrats. --Bangalamania (tauk) 23:42, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

pronoonced 277 pronunced? Cf. annunce, renunce and denunce Nogger (tauk) 00:24, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
reguidals (in code base) 0 ?
facing (prep.) [Opposite (to), in front of, over against] 31 forenent
away from 91 awa frae; aff o. Will depend on context
intended 155 ettled
worse 13 waur
build, built 864 big, biggit
daughter 111 dochter
himself, herself 117 himsel, hersel / hissel, hirsel
forward 157 forrit
anerly, anerlie 4267 anely
brought 33 brocht
saint 1690 saunt, sant
town 1091 toun / toon
haeve 2 hae
given 182 gien
from 3518 f(r)ae
children 263 childer / weans / bairns
muckle fettle: forbye, also, an aw, an aa (uise in airticle text itsel) sindry ways dependent on context
was 2356 wis
such 1736 sic / context dependent
they 1833 thay Beware, "Thay" is the plural form of "that", not they. There's no direct English translation, ken grammar

According to the Dictionary of the Scots Language thae is the pl. form of that and they is the pronoun. Nogger (tauk) 22:14, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

their 1943 thair, thir Beware, "thair" is nothing to do with their, and "thir" is a plural form of "this", ken grammar

According to the Dictionary of the Scots Language thir is the pl. of this and their is the possess. adj. Nogger (tauk) 22:14, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

then 2007 than / syne Beware, grammar exists in both Scots and English and "then" and "than" are two very different words
neix (on search pages) 0 neist?
long 591 lang
mother, brother, father 513 mither, brither, faither
border [of a country, region etc.] 1378 march Its apparently pronounced /mertʃ/ in Broad Scots rather than /mɑrtʃ/ Nogger (tauk) 00:15, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
most 779 maist
more, muir 841 mair Is this mair or muir? Nogger (tauk) 00:07, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
began 1032 begood, begoud
before 479 afore
death, daith 3554 deeth/deith
insect, insects 178 beastie, beasties Surely beasties are any small creatures not just insects? Nogger (tauk) 00:07, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
agricultur 652 agriculture (61 uses in articles) fermin?
Reguidit (used in wiki) 0 ?
fight 99 fecht
dialect 402 byleid The headword in the Dictionary of the Scots Language is leed. Leid is a metal. Byleed appears to be a neologism after forms such as byname. Nogger (tauk) 21:52, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
unaware 9 unawaur
famous 1344 kenspeckle
(e.g. breast) cancer 581 cancer (e.g. o the breist)
Fowk wi 'medical condition' (used in categories) Fowk foondert wi 'medical condition'
enlarge 11 'enlairge' is in DSL afore 1700
majority 998 the feck
shoes 55 shuin, shin, shoon
teacher 230 dominie
former 383 umwhile [16]
feection, non-feection 741 fiction, ?
varsity 5012 universite
game 456 gemm [gien as the owersettin in ESD]
via 2143 throu
half 201 hauf
show 1093 shaw
category 2647 categery \ current use is inconsistent; categorie
girl 268 lass anely thing tae discuss wad be plural form -lasses or lassies

Surely lasses is the plural of lass and lassies the plural of the diminutive lassie? Girl is a very old Scots word too. Nogger (tauk) 23:27, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

boy 294 lad Boy is a very old Scots word too. Nogger (tauk) 23:27, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
unless, except 649 binna
dog 134 dug
between 350 atween
seestem 2405 system (used in meta pages and solar system pages)

The Scots Haunbuik mentions "language as a seestem", Scots Tung Wittins mentions the "eddication seestem" and gets a mention in the Dictionary of the Scots Language with "whitivver seestem is the ootcome". Nogger (tauk) 23:27, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

perfaision/perfaisional 742 profession/professional archaic spelling? in CSD as profession

Perhaps arrived at by metathesis cf. perfain. Nogger (tauk) 23:52, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

YYYY - Present (an siclik) YYYY onwart? In dates (like a telly shaw) whar somhin is still runnin or in place
Laird/laird 966 Lord (religious context), laird (noble rank) All of the Church of Scotland's material for worship in Scots use the translation "Lord", not Laird. Cannot find any evidence for it being used for God in modern Scots, only for the rank (Laird's Prayer to Lord's Prayer, for example). --Bangalamania (tauk) 23:38, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Historically Laird but as God speaks standard English (in the KJV) it became customary to use Lord in polite company. Nogger (tauk) 23:19, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Dounset 1176 ? ? ? Uised 1176 times as of 1 Aug 2020. Hae fin uises o it for the Inglis wird 'settlement', as in an 'inhabited place'.

"Dounset" probably doesn't have all the meanings of settlement that have perhaps been attributed to it. The Dictionary of the Scots Language has sattle for standard English settle with an example +ment. The dictionary only provides examples of meanings peculiar to Scots not all those shared with standard English. Nogger (tauk) 20:52, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Splorer(s) 59 Explorer(s) (149 uises) (en) Definitions I see for splorer are "merry-makers" and those who partaken in "exploits" not exploring. Explore is in DSL.

The Dictionary of the Scots Language suggests that the word meaning a revel, jollification, party, spree, etc. "... seems to have been brought into circulation and may indeed have been invented by Burns" and that the meaning to hunt about, search is nonce (made up). Nogger (tauk) 19:48, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Ebreu 657 Hebrew The only Scots usage of the word is archaic and pre-dates the language revival. No usage in the Scottish Corpus and on google its just a Middle English word. Looks like the word was first used on scowiki by a sco-1 Englishman. Also the Ebreu spelling is hardcoded into the lang-he-n text for the language ref.--Illandancient (tauk) 09:37, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Teep 4077 Type
Kynd o
Nothing on Scottish Corpus, whilst 'type' has hunners. DSL has it in the context of printing. On Scowiki it looks like nonsense.--Illandancient (tauk) 22:22, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
  • The Dictionary of the Scots Language describes teep as the Sc. form of Eng. type referring to § 45 for the phonology: "Romance [i] — advice, fine, cry, sybo (an onion). When the Romance word came into Scots after this change was completed the ee [i] remains as in item, licence, oblige, liberal." The dictionary usually includes uses particular to Scots and does not include uses shared with standard English." Nogger (tauk) 21:58, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
  • The problem is that in most instances here "teep" is incorrectly used to mean "type" as in a class or category of things, rather than correctly as something to do with printing.--Illandancient (tauk) 22:22, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
  • The meaning "a class or category of things" is very likely an extension of the meaning from printing, however, as Scots is ultimately heteronomous with respect to standard English dialect levelling will have ensured the standard English form replaced the Scots form. Nogger (tauk) 19:38, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

I have seen "kynd o" listed in Corpus a few times. CanadianToast (tauk) 04:27, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Beeshops, Airchbeeshop and Airchbeeshops 63, 24, 36 Bishops, Airchbishop and Airchbishops Nothing on Scottish Corpus or DSL. Looks silly--Illandancient (tauk) 22:02, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

The 'ee' spelling perhaps relates to the ee spellings above see § 45 in the Dictionary of the Scots Language. The spelling beeshop can be found in Broad Scots literature. Airch is apparently the Sc. form of Eng. arch. Nogger (tauk) 21:58, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

"Why, mon, its weel authenticated, that a Border-chiel called Robin Hood took the form o' a lassie sae parfectly that he actually imposed on an epeescopal beeshop" from The Library of fiction, or Family story-teller (1836) p.28. The spelling beeshop representing the Scots vowel that can be fount in the ubiquitous Scots meenister. "We had two meenisters at the house cawing away about him, forbye the Beeshop" from Stronbuy; Or, Hanks of Highland Yarn (1893) p253. To suggest Beeshop isn't Scots is to dismiss Broad Scots and those who still speak it. It this a Broad Scots Wikipedia or a not-quite-Standard-English-yet Wikipedia? Nogger (tauk) 18:17, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Do you have a Scots source for your "beeshop" claim? Looks like the source you listed is written and edited by Englishmen that don't appear to have claimed to know Scots. Also, I'm going to have to once again ask you to stay on topic while you're on this page. Nobody questioned meenister, and to suggest the entire purpose of this page is somehow attacking Scots speakers is absurd. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 20:55, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

"Wha's beeshop here?" from vernacular writing in the Perthshire Advertiser Saturday 25 May 1935 and also vernacular Ulster Scots "What's the nixt below an Arch Beeshop?" from When Lint was in the Bell by Archibald McIlroy p.41. Though it is to be expected that dialect levelling will have removed such a pronunciation from the mouths of all but the broadest Scots-speakers. Nogger (tauk) 22:31, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

aibey 208 Abbey Nothing on Scottish Corpus, DSL is ambiguous--Illandancient (tauk) 22:44, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

The Dictionary of the Scots Language describes aibbey as a Sc. form of abbey. Nogger (tauk) 22:14, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
'Abbey' is headwird in CSD. Thare is a area in Gallowa cried 'The Aibbey' in Scots an aw[17].

titular 61 ? (en) Used in the English sense to describe something pertaining to a title.
veelage 3300 clachan
veelage (NE byleid)
village (ither byleid)
wee toun
sma toun
(en) CSD states that "veelage" is a NE Scots byleid, yet it is used indiscriminately across the wiki, including situations where other wording (as noted left) would be more correct. soothrhins (tauk) 10:29, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

The Dictionary of the Scots Language describes veelage as the Sc. forms of Eng. village. Nogger (tauk) 19:38, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Freemit/Fremmit >12000 outwith? used mostly in translation for "external links". Fremmit means estranged, alien, othered, unrelated. There are likely correct usages throughout the wiki, but it definitely shouldn't be "fremmit airtins", "links outwith" would be better IMO Entohist (tauk) 13:35, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

The fremmit in fremmit airtins is perhaps intended as an extension of the meaning not related by kinship or otherwise (to Wikipedia). To airt is to direct, guide to a place (i.e. another website). Perhaps airtin was then intended as the verbal noun for that? Nogger (tauk) 20:30, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Creeminal 124 Criminal Nothing on DSL, nothing on Scottish Corpus, looks silly. On the other hand it is on the Online Scots dictionary, and the British Newspaper Archive has its as spoken Scots.--Illandancient (tauk) 18:14, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Another one of those Romance words as per § 45 in the Dictionary of the Scots Language. The spelling creeminal can be found in Broad Scots vernacular literature. Nogger (tauk) 19:38, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Inglis According to the Dictionary of the Scots Language Inglis is Older Scots (up to 1700). For 1700– that dictionary has English. Nogger (tauk) 21:01, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Preevat 100 Private Archaic and obsolete, nothing on Scottish Corpus.--Illandancient (tauk) 12:05, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Another one of those Romance words as per § 45 in the Dictionary of the Scots Language. The spelling preevat was used by James Hogg, that Ettrick Shepherd fellow, John Wilson, and others, when writing Broad Scots. There's a danger of somebody's archaic and obsolete being somebody else's habitual Broad Scots. Whose stage of dialect levelling is to be the new normal? Nogger (tauk) 22:16, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Preevacie 0 Privacy Its at the bottom left corner of every single Scots wiki page. Nothing in DSL, nothing in corpus.--Illandancient (tauk) 12:05, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Doubtless related to preevat. The spelling preevacy is used by Michael Innes in 'Hamlet, Revenge!' from 2010 and earlier by William Alexander. Unsurprisingly preevacy can be found in 'A Doric Dictionary' by Douglas Kynoch. Nogger (tauk) 22:16, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

The 1937 edition of 'Hamlet, Revenge!' has "preevacy" in a spoken register, and as an English leid book this could be mock-Scots--Illandancient (tauk) 22:56, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

It could indeed be "mock Scots" drawing on the real Scots used in the other writing mentioned above. Unless those are of course mock Scots too. Nogger (tauk) 23:11, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

eetem 13 item Only thirteen occurrences in articles, but its just there on the Tuilkist menu on the left of every page, for "Wikidata eetem". The word doesn't appear in the DSL or in the Corpus, but it is the Online Scots Dictionary result for en-item. Are there any occurrences in contemporary Scots writing? "Item" appears many times in Scots pieces on the Scottish Corpus.--Illandancient (tauk) 22:33, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Another one of those 'ee' spellings as per § 45 in the Dictionary of the Scots Language: "When the Romance word came into Scots after this change was completed the ee [i] remains as in item, ..." Nogger (tauk) 23:21, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Owerset 23 Translate(d) Appears to be recent a calque from a Germanic source such as Dutch overzetten. According to the Dictionary of the Scots Language owerset means "to upset, turn over". The recent origin of the meaning "to translate" underlined by its recorded appearence from the 1990s. Examples of that usage predating the 1980s are hard to find. William A Smith mentioned he'd "putten the New Testament intil Braid Scots". Elsewhere pitten ower intil... or intae... is used. Nevertheless, translate seems to be a perfectly good Scots word. Nogger (tauk) 23:11, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what the objection is here. This is a modern Scots wiki and, as you've already pointed out, "owerset" is in modern use. There's plenty of hits on corpus for "owerset" (87 documents) and the derived "owersetter" (6 documents) and "owersettin" (58 documents) used in this way. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 10:52, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Not an objection as such. Just an observation. I assume people are free to choose whether or not to use neologisms invented by Scots language enthusiasts or existing Scots idiom for the meaning they wish to convey. Nogger (tauk) 16:03, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

fermstockin 55 Livestock? Nothing on Scottish Corpus, nothing on DSL, looks like the term was invented in North Carolina in 2017--Illandancient (tauk) 12:10, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

It probably came from Scots Online not NC ([18]). Livestock isn't in CSD, but there are options (below). Not sure Corpus would excel at farming terms, BNA might be better. CSD has:
'bestial' as noun for domestic animals or livestock, BNA link (mixed in with English adjective of same spelling), also in Corpus
'farm stocking' as "the livestock of a farm", so fermstockin could just be seen as a variant of that, BNA link
'stoking' is also given as "the livestock and implements of a farm." soothrhins (tauk) 12:47, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

In the Dictionary of the Scots Language there's: "ferm-stockin, farm animals, esp. cattle and sheep. Gen.Sc." and vbl.n. stockin(g)' is in Gen.Sc. usage for the live-stock and gear needed to run a farm ... Nogger (tauk) 16:03, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Dizember 896 December Dizember is clearly a pronunciation spelling of December. Nogger (tauk) 17:33, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
Feenal 359 Final Uised fae Fitba matches an siccan. Nae occurrences in the Scottish Corpus, but there are hunners for final. DSL hae it but nae contemporary references, anely anes fae 1871

Feenal is clearly another one of those Broad Scots 'ee' spellings mentioned in the Dictionary of the Scots Language: "§ 45. Romance [i] — advice, fine, cry, sybo (an onion). When the Romance word came into Scots after this change was completed the ee [i] remains as in item, licence, oblige, liberal."[19] Nogger (tauk) 21:05, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Frydey Friday Where does this Frydey come from? I suspect its what the Dictionary of the Scots Language records as Friday. Do any Broad Scots speakers pronounce day to rhyme with pey? Nogger (tauk) 10:01, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Tuils for findin mistaks[eedit soorce]

Puckle Fettle[eedit soorce]

This section is for speirin on wirds that if chygned anely hae an effect on thersells (an different tenses).

Anything/Onything->Ocht[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: airticles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: Inglis anything
Whit for: ocht is the Scots wird

  • Baith ocht an onythin(g) are guid Scots wirds raxin back tae pre-1700 frae the nou. Lat baith staund. (Any- is Inglis per DSL) Entohist
  • Agreed, they baith hae a nummer o spellins tae, sae if it's anely in airticle body text that's awricht. They are jist different wirds, 'onythin' is cognate wi the Inglis wird 'anything', 'ocht' is cognate wi the Inglis wird 'owt' Monospaced (tauk) 01:52, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Aurie?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: airticles, mibbe generally an aa
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: as in English form area
Whit for: speirin o accuraacy

  • Aur(r)ie has a specific meaning and application (the area left over when something is built/ a spare piece of land/ something unused. It's on OSD, but without that context. Entohist (tauk)
  • Sc. forms of area. The dictionary does not provided all senses shared with standard English. Usually only those peculiar to Scots. Nogger (tauk) 19:05, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Area[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Needs leuked at
Collogue: See discussion in previous version o Mercat Cross Soothrhins (tauk) 19:15, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Regio(u)n[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Needs leuked at
Collogue:

  • Hoosaboot Regio(u)n(e: DSL has the sense 'a particular ‘part of the world’'? C1614 (tauk) 20:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Pairt[eedit soorce]

Evidence: DSL: "3. (1) In sing. where Eng. uses pl.: a place, district, area, neighbourhood"

Rounds (o)[eedit soorce]

Evidence: in DSL https://dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/round (IV. 2.) with def. article.
Collogue: (en) I think would work in most cases excepting for the surface extent of something Entohist (tauk)

Ceety?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: only in airticles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: to describe a lairge urban area
Whit for: It cannae be found in ony proper dictionar

Related wirds that wid be affected: ceeties (3734 occurrences)

Ceetie or City[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Both in CSD, anely city is present in Corpus, some example o Scots uses [20] [21] [22]
Collogue: See discussion in previous version o Mercat Cross Soothrhins (tauk) 19:15, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

  • (en) Discussion in discord is leaning towards city; e.g. "For me, the higher register should use city. Modern Scots and older Scots use city... City also allows folk to pronounce it anyway they want. Ceety doesnt." (not a self quote) soothrhins (tauk) 08:48, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
    • Fair points. I'd generally back spellings that allow for maximum variation, rather than yins that 'lock' ye intae a particular pronunciation. C1614 (tauk) 15:45, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
    • soothrhins might've been quoting me here, but if not I completely agree. The "ee" vs. "i" question is a big one (but I've maybe missed if it's already discussed on the wiki!) Entohist
  • Ah'm fer speelin it "Citie", looks Scot an lats ye say hou ye want.John Gordon Reid (tauk) 14:11, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
  • In the Dictionary of the Scots Language you can find: "1. as [i]: (1) in the stressed vowel of Romance words as civil, city, image, item, licence, minute, oblige, position, etc. (see Weekly Mag. (18 July 1771) 69 and P.L.D. § 45 and p. xliii), and in the ending -ise, as criticeese, idoleeze, etc., now obsol." [23] With further explanation elsewhere: "§ 45. Romance [i] — advice, fine, cry, sybo (an onion). When the Romance word came into Scots after this change was completed the ee [i] remains as in item, licence, oblige, liberal." [24] After a hundred years or so of dialect levelling it is of course no surprise that traditional Broad Scots forms are being rejected in favour of standard English ones. Nogger (tauk) 22:05, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Toon an Toun[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Whilst in the UK 'city' is a technical English term, for a large town with a cathedral (or not in the case of Elgin), in the rest of the world 'city' can be used for any size of settlement, even settlements of fewer than a hundred or so houses, that any true Scotsman would call a 'toon'. Glasgow is referred to as a 'toon', Aberdeen is a 'toun'. Perhaps the international word 'city' doesn't have a direct transliterated spelling in Scots, but the meaning of the word is 'toun' New York City is a muckle toon, Toyko is just a large toun.--Illandancient (tauk) 22:41, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Collogue:

Cræft?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: main wiki codebase
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: fir creatin a page an sic
Whit for: is no a recognised wird, æ isnae commonly uised in oor alphabet

  • Likely a solecism drawing on Old English cræft, Modern Scots craft used as a verb meaning to exercise a craft i.e. to build or make. Nogger (tauk) 21:25, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Mak[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Needs leuked at
Collogue: No ony specific collogue, but [Uisier:C1614] speired swift action Soothrhins (tauk) 19:47, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

  • (en) See my comment below. James Hyett (tauk) 19:46, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Stert[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Needs leuked at
Collogue: No ony previous collogue Soothrhins (tauk) 19:47, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

  • A see that Mak acoont is an option whan ye'r no loggit in. C1614 (tauk) 14:34, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
  • (en) Given that C1614 was looking for swift action on this nearly a month ago, and that "mak" is already used in the example they gave above, I feel like "mak" is the way to go. James Hyett (tauk) 19:46, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Creautit[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: Main codebase an airticles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: Inglis created; in codebase fur Inglis 'Articles created'
Whit for: Obviously wrang. No in DSL or corpus, or NLS archive, or Prees archive

  • The form creautit probably draws on William Laughton Lorimer's creâtit in his much praised Scots Translation of the New Testament. From Revelation 5.5 "An ilka creâtit thing ..." The a-circumflex â is Lorimer's way of showing an au pronunciation. Older Scots forms like creat (without a final e) would indicate such a pronunciation, for example "God creat the material world in the begynnyng ..." from The Complaynte of Scotland. Nogger (tauk) 20:28, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
  • (en) Nogger You say the circumflex is Lorimer's way of showing an au pronunciation-- is there any evidence of au being used for an au pronunciation? I'm inclined to think that this particular word will not be able to be settled here. James Hyett (tauk) 19:49, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
  • I just added the above as a possible explanation as to how the spelling was arrived at. I suspect the pronunciation it represents is now wholly obsolete due to dialect levelling. I suppose there's no reason folk can't pronounce creatit that way if they want to.Nogger (tauk) 21:10, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Created?[eedit soorce]

Evidence: 'Create' not in DSL efter 1700. Creat(e) is in afore 1700 meanin: To make or constitute (officers, etc.) by appointment or enactment; to invest with a specified function or character in this way. Corpus haes 143 occurences.
Collogue:

  • A'll chynge it tae 'created' the noo. Gin we want anither option, thon can be chyned efter. The codebase will still need chynged. C1614 (tauk) 10:25, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
    • Actually, 'Creatit' probably better option. C1614 (tauk) 10:27, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Creatit[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Corpus haes 6 occurences.
Collogue:

  • Better option nor 'Created'. C1614 (tauk) 10:27, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Dee'd[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: Biographic airticles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: Either the date when a person became (en)dead, the past tense of the verb (en)'to die'
Whit for: Could be an apologetic apostrophe, or the conflict between 'ee' and ei' pronounciations

Deid[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Widely used in spoken Glesga Scots and Scottish Corpus fae the (En)'dead' but not so much for (en)'died'
Collogue:

  • Ma ane experience matches the Corpus evidence, A anely say it in the present tense. Monospaced (tauk) 12:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
    Efter referrin tae the DSL & CSD it seems they dinnae distinguish atween them (tae dee, she has deid/deed, she deid/deed the ither day). As notit, mair variety on Corpus. Monospaced (tauk) 01:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Deed[eedit soorce]

Evidence: uses the "ee" diphthong, widely used on the Scottish Corpus for both (en)died and (en)deed.
Collogue:

Deet[eedit soorce]

Evidence: uses the standard past tense "t" and the "ee" diphthong, only 7 entries on the scottish corpus mostly older text
Collogue:

Deit[eedit soorce]

Evidence: uses the standard past tense "t" and the "ei" diphthong, only one entry on the scottish corpus, but modern text
Collogue: In a standardised world it would be nice to have the words for (en)deed, (en)dead and (en)died all spelled differently, but it depends on how native Scots speakers actually speak in their own dialects.--Illandancient (tauk) 13:32, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Surely its as simple as dee (to die) pt. dee'd (died), deed (deed), and deid (dead)? Nogger (tauk) 22:06, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
Oh? So what's the apostrophe for? There is some precedent for "dee'd", but it's almost certainly an apologetic apostrophe. That's why this discussion was started. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 23:28, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
I assume its from dee + ed where the apostrophe unapologetically replaces the e in ed to avoid having deeed. In the Dictionary of the Scots Language there's the example He dee'd afore his heid wad wag In God's denial. Nogger (tauk) 20:17, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Eedit?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: main wiki codebase
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: as in English form of edit, or makin a chynge tae somthin
Whit for: disnae mean 'edit', is in DSL as a spellin variant of 'eediot' (ironically, meanin idiot in English)

Chynge[eedit soorce]

Evidence: DSL, CSD (various spellins)
Collogue: No ony previous collogue Soothrhins (tauk) 19:47, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Alter[eedit soorce]

Evidence: DSL, CSD
Collogue: Na ony previous collogue Monospaced (tauk) 06:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Encyclopædia? an Wikipædia?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: main wiki codebase
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: (en) proper noun of Wikipedia, and in description of what this is
Whit for: (en) questionable basis on such a spelling, and use of æ, not commonly used in Scots

æ/ae --> e (Encyclopedia an Wikipedia)[eedit soorce]

Evidence: No reference in DSL, Corpus or CSD. Requires academic/linguistic input.
Collogue: First raised in Spellin Fettle Collogue Soothrhins (tauk) 20:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

  • "We do have a precident for the name being whatever is right in that language (see meta:List of Wikipedias, but unless we are super certain, we should retain the proper name"[25] Soothrhins (tauk) 21:02, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
  • (en) Actually, it was raised sooner than that. –MJLTauk 02:57, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
  • (in Inglis)Hmm, we need to be consistent (or we'll get very confused). Either all items need to be in Wikipaedia namespace, or Wikipedia. I'd much favour Wikipedia as a proper noun. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (taukcontribs) 16:30, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
  • (in Inglis) My understanding is that we need confirmation (possibly academic confirmation) on the spelling of the Scots word encyclop(a)edia, and that can inform the spelling of Wikip(a)edia. Although it is important to note that this very page is called "Wikipedia:Spellin Fettle", and indeed the namespace list currently has a "Wikipedia" and "Wikipedia collogue" but no "Wikipaedia". It seems to me this should be pretty high priority, have we got a way of noting that? James Hyett (tauk) 16:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
    @James Hyett: You may request changing namespace names via Phabricator, but a consensus is required for non-MediaWiki software-based namespaces. --Liuxinyu970226 (tauk) 03:58, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
  • A hae thocht aboot how tae hielicht priority speirins. Ony ideas walcome. A will email Scots Language Centre the morn, they shuid be able to provide academic input we need on this yin. Soothrhins (tauk) 00:09, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

-ia --> -ie (Encyclopedie an Wikipedie)[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Thare's evidence that at ae time the 'ia' endins in English cam oot as 'ie' in Scots afore Staundart English wis uised for the names o maist aw learnit things. [Araby, Aurrie, Indie, Ruschy, an in Kailyaird writins an fowk sangs Australie or Australy[26] can be fand. Wi guid auld-farrant analogy, hou no Wikipedie? Jimmy~scowiki (tauk) 22:14, 7 September 2020 (UTC) Collogue:

  • (in Inglis) I've separated this from the above discussion, since there are two aspects of the words being discussed now. James Hyett (tauk) 19:25, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
  • (in Inglis) If there is strong modern precedent for using -ie over -ia for words with similarly-rooted suffixes, sure. Araby, Indie, and Ruschie are all dated and (I suspect) more modern uses, like kailyard literature etc., are poetic or for other effect. Aurrie isn't rooted in area afaik (its from orra). My vote is stick with Wikipedia. Entohist (tauk) 20:47, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
The Dictionary of the Scots Language tells us that Aurea, Aurrie are Sc. forms of area. The dictionary does not the list all Scots uses of the word that also occur in Standard English, just special senses peculiar to Scots. Orra is a different word altogether. Jimmy~scowiki (tauk) 15:23, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Folk?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: in airticles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: Needs leuked at, presumin som are 'folk' as in group o people, an som are fowk as in the music
Whit for: main spellin in DSL[27] is fowk (in collective noun meanin o a group o people)

Related wirds that wid be affected:' folklore, folks, folkloric (is folkloric needin a fettle in itsel)

Fowk[eedit soorce]

Evidence: In CSD an DSL[28], 1,581 mentions in Corpus[29]
Collogue:

  • Fairly conclusive on collective noun, but no formal definition of folk as in folk music (see ablo). Soothrhins (tauk) 00:05, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Folk[eedit soorce]

Evidence: No definition in CSD or DSL for folk in the English equivalent of folk music.
Collogue:

  • Shuid it be fowk music? If no aroon 90 mentions will hae to be manually checked? Soothrhins (tauk) 00:05, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
* Does ony body ken o ony situations whaur 'fowk' isnae cognate wae the English 'folk'? A think it's likly usit mair aften in Scots but meanin the same. If sae then 'fowk music' seems reasonable enough tae me, it's jist an adjective raither than a proper noun (that seem tae be mair controversial). Monospaced (tauk) 07:03, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
* Only placenames 'Norfolk', 'Suffolk', 'Folkestone' and 'Folketing'. Although that last word is Danish pairlament, which is literally (en)'People's thing'.--Illandancient (tauk) 08:32, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Falk[eedit soorce]

Evidence: In Delting, Shetland byleid it is a commonly used fae a group of people Collogue: Just aneither option--Illandancient (tauk) 11:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Fowkrepublic[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: in airticles about kintras like China, Hungary and associated pages
Whit is the meanin the wirds(s) ar tryin tae say: The name o the kintra
Whit for: no one outwith Sco.wiki hae ever uised this wird, there are no references or citations for this wird

(en) I think this was modelled on other Germanic languages (German Volksrepublik, Dutch volksrepubliek, Swedish folkrepublik), maybe as a purism to 'avoid' an English or more Latinate term. It doesn't seem to be used (independently) elsewhere as you say and such neologisms don't belong here. Lingo Bingo Dingo (tauk) 09:26, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
The following constructed words have also come to light 'fowkcommittee', 'fowkdemocratic', 'fowkcongresses', 'fowkairmy', 'fowkcongress' and 'fowkliberation' with ten or so occurrences each.--Illandancient (tauk) 08:32, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
(en) The page Fowkrepublic o Cheenae was first translated by Uiser:Mendor who is no longer active, listed their Scots knowledge at 2 when they were, and specifically talked through their thoughts on the name of the country at Collogue:Fowkrepublic o Cheenae, where they mentioned that they were "no wantin tae seem ower keen tae get awa frae the English juist for the sake o't". This seems pretty cut-and-dry to me. James Hyett (tauk) 18:50, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

People's Republic[eedit soorce]

Evidence: its the official name o the kintras

(en) I don't think those countries have an official Scots name. But using the usual term in English is better than using a made-up Scots term. Lingo Bingo Dingo (tauk) 09:26, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Republict o the Fowk[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Scots Language Centre's Warld Names in Scots

(en) It seems to me that the document linked above should be pretty conclusive evidence for this word and the country words below. James Hyett (tauk) 01:37, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Hained?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: main wiki codebase
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: as in the English form 'saved', e.g. whan ye mak an edit on a page and publish the chygnes
Whit for: worried it could be misinterpretin meaning of hain[30], meaning 3 which has "to save (up)", cuid a body have thoucht it could dae for save?

Hained doesn't seem like the right word. Would "set-furth" do if we're meaning publish? Witchofthewoods (talk) 14:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Agree that 'hained' isnae the richt wird. Is it bein used the noo? A ainly see 'Publish chynges' C1614 (tauk) 17:05, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
(in Inglis) It's used at the bottom of the edit page! "Bi hainin chynges, ye agree tae the Terms o Uiss, n ye onrevocablie agree tae release yer contreebution unner the CC BY-SA 3.0 License n the GFDL. Ye agree that ae hyperairtin or URL is suffeeciant attreebution unner the Creative Commons license." James Hyett (tauk) 17:32, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
(en) Further context of how it is being used on this wiki. I get a message "Yer eedit wis hained." after making an edit. So whatever is settled on needs to work well in multiple tenses. Soothrhins (tauk) 18:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Cheers! Seen it noo! C1614 (tauk) 09:12, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Siccar (or variant)[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Well kent/uised wird for this kind o meaning, in DSL[31], 140 mentions in Corpus.
Collogue:

  • E'en tho av suggestit siccar, thar may be a better yin yet Soothrhins (tauk) 21:11, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Mak chynges[eedit soorce]

Evidence:
Collogue:

  • Clear and tae the pynt C1614 (tauk) 17:05, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
    • An fir past tense 'been chynged', hink anely thing that is lackin is that chygne feels less permanent than the English 'save' we ar leukin at. But not opposed, maun improved than hain/hained. Soothrhins (tauk) 18:10, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Homologate[eedit soorce]

Evidence:In DSL [32] an CSD (definition: To ratify, confirm, approve), 0 in Corpus
Collogue:

  • Dinnae think we shuid use it, but it's a guid Scots wird an better suited tae the meanin we're efter nor Hained C1614 (tauk) 17:05, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
    • Between siccar, mak chgynes an homologate, a hink homologate is best. Mibbe no well kent, but it's definition fits the english form of 'save' or 'saving' that we ar leukin at. Soothrhins (tauk) 18:00, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
      • Aye, A agree noo A ken whaur it's beein used. Thocht afore it was ettled as an option fur 'Publish chynges'. C1614 (tauk) 09:12, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
      • Luiks guid for 'publish' or 'confirm' (end process an/or shaw tae uiser), an I lik siccar for 'save' / 'secure' (tae a database) in mair general terms. Monospaced (tauk) 01:25, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Heidquartert?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: in airticles aboot 61 times
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: the main base fir a company
Whit for: Nae corpus entries, nae DSL entries.

Related wirds: heidquartered (56 airticles), heidquairtered (48 airticles), headquartered (21 airticles)

Heidquartert[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Nae hits oan Corpus or DSL.
Collogue:

  • I'm thinking it might not necessarily be wrong, it just doesn't feel right to me. No evidence on Corpus/DSL backing it up either way. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 12:34, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Has/Wi heidquarters[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Twa hits oan Corpus fir 'heidquarters', nane oan DSL.
Collogue:

  • Context-sensitive, sometimes it's more appropriate to use "wi" and sometimes "has". If someone's planning to use AWB they'd have to double-check each time. My personal preference, though. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 12:34, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Steidit[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Twa hits oan Corpus, nane oan DSL.
Collogue: No ony previous collogue.


Housomeivver?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: in airticles aboot 1232 times
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: like the English form o preposition 'notwithstanding'
Whit for: cannae see ony reputed etymology for the wird, 0 mentions in Corpus [33], 0 in BNA[34], 0 in NLS [35]

  • (en) The word is howsomever, which is in DSL. I think it's just been over "Scotched". Housomever appears 4 times in corpus. It's a word I see a lot in old (handwritten) probate records. Entohist (tauk)
  • As how is pronounced hoo, also written hou, in Scots its unsurprising that in the Dictionary of the Scots Language you'll find hoosomever and encounter spellings like housomever, housomiver, housomeivver, etc. elsewhere Nogger (tauk) 11:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Maugre[eedit soorce]

Evidence: In CSD an DSL[36], 1 mention in Corpus [37], mony uises in BNA[38], 156 items in NLS[39]
Collogue:

  • Isnae a wird a hae seen afore, but as evidence sets oot it haes been in uise. Soothrhins (tauk) 23:11, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • It seems like it comes from Middle French maugré. English maugre is obsolete, maybe the Scots is as well? Lingo Bingo Dingo (tauk) 15:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Leets?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: generally
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: for describing lists of things
Whit for: Defintion o leet is mare specific than lists, "A list of candidates or nominees eligible for a post or office, usually the select list of those considered the most suitable. The select or prize-winning animals at an agricultural show."[40]

Lists[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Needs leuked at
Collogue: No ony previous collogue Soothrhins (tauk) 19:47, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Leet is uised fur 'list' in Robinson's 'Modern Scots Grammar'. C1614 (tauk) 17:05, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
According to the Dictionary of the Scots Language a leet is only a "list of candidates or nominees eligible for a post or office, gen. the select list of those considered the most suitable" which is a particular kind of list not any kind of list. Ironically, the examples of usage provided appear to be in a language that looks very much like what is known as English. And additional examples. Its likely Scots language enthusiasts started using leet for list to avoid what they perceived to be the English word list. Which ironically, is also a perfectly good Scots word. Nevertheless, leet can be found in the corpus for all manner of lists. Apparently lots of examples in the corpus qualify the usage of such malaproprations or neologisms as Modern Scots. Nogger (tauk) 19:23, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Inventars[eedit soorce]

Evidence: well attested in DSL. works well as noun and verb. https://dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/inventar
Collogue: No ony previous collogue Entohist (tauk)

Member?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: in airticles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: like the English form o 'member'
Whit for: member an memmer baith in uise

Member[eedit soorce]

Evidence: presently in airticles aboot 2374 times, in CSD an DSL[41], 1,163 mentions in Corpus but will include English texts
Collogue:

Memmer[eedit soorce]

Evidence: presently in airticles aboot 92 times, not in CSD or DSL, 8 mentions in Corpus(https://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/search/?word=memmer&search=Search) including modern uise by 'Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body'
Collogue:

  • Am curious tae see whit ithers hink, is it a example in spekein (like hink fir think) that isnae officially recordit yet? Soothrhins (tauk) 22:00, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
  • (en) "Memmer" is present in documents published by the Scots Parliament, such as this one. James Hyett (tauk) 15:37, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
  • The spelling memmer was perhaps arrived at (incorrectly) by enthusiasts drawing an analogy with words where the instance of /b/ between /m/ and a following /r/ were lost, such as Old English timber giving Broad Scots timmer (English timber), Old French chambre giving Broad Scots chaumer and Old French nombrer giving Broad Scots nummer, or where standard English ended up with a /b/ such as Old English æmerġe giving Broad Scots emmers (English embers) and Old English þȳmel giving Broad Scots thimmle (English thimble). The stress in Old French membre member, Latin September (Old French Septembre) September and Old French remembrer remember was perhaps different than in the words above so the /b/ between /m/ and a following /r/ remained. Nogger (tauk) 21:37, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Naition / Nation[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: Airticles generally, particularly for the nems o kinta-level institutions
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: A kintra or sovereign state (Scots cognate for the relatit Inglis wird 'Nation')
Whit for: These are baith weel evidenced spellins for a Scots wird, so this should anely seek tae prefer a spellin for titles an common text (e.g. infoboxes). Assume derived wirds (na[i]tionality, na[i]tional, etc) tae be includit.

Naition[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Heidwird in CSD, 27 hits in Corpus, in DSL as dialectal (Ork., Abd) redirect tae National
Collogue:

Nation[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Anely alternate spellin in CSD (neither merkit as dialectal), 329 hits in Corpus (inflatit bi Inglis results but some are clearly in Scots), heidwird in DSL
Collogue:

Rake?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: in wiki codebase
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: as in the English form o 'search' on a Wiki
Whit for: there is a Scots wird wi a better meanin for this (ye rake throu hay, or rake through drawers leukin for somethin, assumption that is why it wis picked afore). Sense 6 in DSL is "To search a person ", so no appropriate here.

Search[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Heidwird in CSD an DSL[42]
Collogue:

Serche[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Variant wird in CSD (noted archaic), in 'Old Tongue' o DSL[43], 0 mentions in Corpus
Collogue:

Reenge[eedit soorce]

Evidence: DSL 3. tr. To search (a place) widely and thoroughly, to scour, rummage through; ESD for search.
Collogue:

Fork[eedit soorce]

Evidence: ESD for search; OSD for to look for.
Collogue:

School-> Schuil, Schule[eedit soorce]

  • Schule is heidwird in DSL an CSD, but Schuil haes mair hits in corpus. As weel as frequency, A'd say Schuil is better as it allows for 'i' pronunciations tae be read raither nor inferred. C1614 (tauk) 19:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

'See Forby'?, 'See an aa'?, 'See an aw' ?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: in airticles'
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: Like when English Wikipedia haes 'See also'
Whit for: See Forby: Syntax seems wrang, an unsure of forby spelling. See an aa/aw: generally it isnae uised in sic way


Forbye[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Forbye haes mair entries in Corpus than forby
Collogue: See discussion in previous version o Mercat Cross Soothrhins (tauk) 19:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

  • "Besides, in addition, as well, what is more."[44], forbye on its ane seems to be an accurate enough description Soothrhins (tauk) 19:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
I never heard anyone say 'forbye' in Glasgow, it might be spoken more often in other dialects, but 'an aw' and 'an aa' were heard daily. 'an aw' would only be used at the end of a clause, rather than at the start of a clause, but the meaning here is different. Perhaps something like "Relatit airticles" would do the job better.--Illandancient (tauk) 08:25, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • A think pairt o the problem is that Inglis 'See also' is an idiomatic phrase that disnae lend itsel weel to an idiomatic owersettin. Hooiver, here's a wheen o examples frae ither wiki leids: de.wiki haes 'Siehe auch'; fr.wiki haes 'Articles connexes', whiles itsel, whiles unner the heidin 'Voir aussi'; is.wiki haes 'Tengt efni' [related topics]; es.wiki haes 'Véase también'; no.wiki haes 'Se også'. Dinnae ken eneuch anent aa these leids tae ken gin the close 'See also' owersettins is idiomatic, or calques frae Inglis. Wuid be guid gin we cuid get some context on thon. Fur the noo, A think A'd gan wi 'Forby(e)' itsel, no 'See forby(e)'. Hooiver, mebbe 'Siclik(e) pages' wuid be an alternative. 'Mair readin(g)' micht be an option as weel. C1614 (tauk) 09:03, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • I finnd it a fash whiles whan scrievin expository Scots no tae uise 'also'. Alsae wis common in Aulder Scots but as faur's I ken it's noo obsolete. It's aw aboot context, but I uise thir insteid: an aw, atour ('besides', 'additionally', 'moreover'), and as weel (as). An aw dis wirk in places ither than at the end o a sentence, but I hinna come tae only rules (I juist uise instinct), e.g.: 'Mind an-aw and gie the bunker a dicht efter ye'r duin.' Or this frae a translate o Animal Ferm that I'm wirkin on (uisin forby an aw): 'Efter, the’ wad be the need an-aw for seeds and artificial manures, forby aw kin-kind o tuils and, last, the machinery for the windmill.' It certainly soonds richt tae my lugs. (I uise an-aw wi the hyphen for tae mak it a bit easier tae read.) Jamie Smith (tauk) 09:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
    • This section's anent the section headin "See also" in Inglis. We probably need anither fur forby, an aw, etc in the text o airticles. There's a muckle feck o examples whaur the Inglis 'also' has been owerset as 'an aa' in the text o articles, whaur it disnae work syntactically: e.g. "She was an aa a fuitballer' whaur it shuid be "She was a fuitballer an aw/forby'. It's gonnae be a pest tae chynge these, but they staun oot lik a sare thumb sae needs tae be fixed asap. C1614 (tauk) 09:55, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
      • In that case 'See relatit' micht be the best ane. 'See an aw' soonds awricht tae me, tae. Jamie Smith (tauk) 10:31, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
        • Agree wi 'See an aw/aa'. Soonds richt. A'll stick it ablo. C1614 (tauk) 10:37, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
          • Braw. I wad juist eik here for the record that 'See forby' micht be the maist like traditional braid Scots speech, but 'See an aw' micht be mair modren. Jamie Smith (tauk) 10:45, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • I'm more familiar with the use of "forbye" in the sense of "besides" so as a straight replacement for "see also" I don't think it's right. Maybe it's a regional thing though and it's more commonly used in the "see forbye" sense elsewhere. It's not a very common word in the West of Scotland that I've heard, I've heard it more further North. Witchofthewoods (talk) 11:07, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • What about "See as weel"? That feels most natural to me, is "as weel" used in other regions too? Witchofthewoods (talk) 11:14, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Siclik(e) pages[eedit soorce]

Collogue:
Wuid be 'Similar pages' in Inglis. Problem wi thon is that "similar" isnae quite the richt meanin - "See also" sections shuid be fur articles that wuid be linked in a comprehensive article, so jist a leet o siclike things. C1614 (tauk) 09:03, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

See an aw/aa[eedit soorce]

Evidence: 1 example in Corpus, an it clearly matches the sense o 'See also': ".. EU citizens. For mair wittins see:- www.itchy-coo.com See an aw Irene Broon's braw review o the abuin buik in last month's ..."
Collogue:

  • Suggested abuin. Soonds guid tae me. C1614 (tauk) 10:37, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Although "see an aa" seems to match "see also" I don't think this is the natural way to use it. In the example above, I would say "see Irene Broon's braw review an aa..." rather than "see an aa Irene Broon's braw review" which just sounds wrong to my ear. Witchofthewoods (talk) 11:11, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Relatit pages[eedit soorce]

Evidence: 1 example in Corpus, same context. "Relate" is in DSL.
Collogue:

  • I know adding another option probably won't get this sorted sooner, but there seems to be some debate about the grammar of the other options. Instead of trying to translate an idiom, we should just say what the section is; related pages. Evidence for "relate" might be a bit weaker than the other options but it's there, and at least we can all agree it's grammatical. Alt spelling "related" has some evidence on Corpus, but seems to refer more to people. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 14:30, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
I'd like to express my support for this option. Rather than a Scots translation of the English phrase 'see also', its more in common with the idea that other language wiki are expressing, that there are more pages relating the topic.--Illandancient (tauk) 14:43, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
A support this option ower ithers an aa, for the reasons abuin an cause it reads clearly. Soothrhins (tauk) 17:35, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
This is the one we should go with. –MJLTauk 19:30, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
(in Inglis) I think this is the way to go too. Having just dipped into Wikipédia en français for the first time in a few years, it looks like they use something more like this: « Articles connexes » (connected articles). James Hyett (tauk) 21:14, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Skauk[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: main codebase, whaur en.wiki haes 'Hide' in a table
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: Inglis 'hide'
Whit for: nae doot a form o 'Scug': DSL haes the follaein spellins: skug(g), skjug (Sh.); scog(g), skog, scogue, skjoag (Sh.); scoog, scoug, skoog; scowg; skough, skeugh

Dern[eedit soorce]

Evidence: DSL https://dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/dern_adj_n_v1
Collogue A'm taen wi this yin. Dernt meanin "hidden" is weel-kent (A think). Entohist (tauk)

Soum (an sic)?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: in airticles an airticle titles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: soum haes been uised for the English form swim an fir derivatives o it
Whit for: no a spellin in common modern uisage

Related wirds that wid be affected: soummers, soummin

Sweem[eedit soorce]

Evidence: heidwird spelling in CSD, an DSL[45], 8 mentions in Corpus[46]
Collogue:

  • Ma ane view wid be fir sweem, as heidwird in CSD, an DSL entry says it is nou usual spellin Soothrhins (tauk) 21:25, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Soom[eedit soorce]

Evidence: in CSD as variant spellin, separate entry in DSL[47] as it notes seem is now usual form, 1 mention in Corpus[48]
Collogue:

Swim[eedit soorce]

Evidence: in CSD as variant spellin, listed in 'Old Tongue' o DSL[49], 54 mentions in Corpus[50] but this will include English texts
Collogue:


Spick?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: Here (no doubt ither uises an aw)
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: as in English form verb to speak
Whit for: the main definition o that spellin means fat meat or bacon[51]

Speke or Speik[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Is main spellins in DSL [52], CSD entries noted wae byleid
Collogue:
Thar is a wheen o spellins on this:

  • spek (CSD: archaic, noun)
  • speke (CSD: archaic, both verb and noun)
  • speik (CSD: verb, archaic as noun)
  • speike
  • speick
  • speyk
  • speck
  • specke
  • speak (CSD)
  • speake (CSD: North Eastern)
  • speack
  • speek
  • speeke
  • speeck
  • spaek (CSD: Shetland)
  • spake
  • spaik
  • spaike
  • spikk (CSD: Orkney & Ulster)
  • spick
  • spike (CSD: North Eastern)
  • spicke
  • spyk (CSD: Spike - North Eastern)

Soothrhins (tauk) 21:45, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

It looks like 'spick' is rarely used on the wiki, its not in the wiki word frequency list, it might only being on meta(?) pages. There are a variety of spellings but 'speak' has the most occurrences (341), 'spak' (160 occurrences), 'spik' (16), 'spaik' (4 occurrences), 'spake' (9). 'Speke' and 'speik' also haven't been used on the wiki.--Illandancient (tauk) 11:54, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Should probably be noted too that the variety of spellings will be down to the range of dialects Scots has and personal writing styles recorded through work of DSL (and others). Soothrhins (tauk) 12:10, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
I've added notes in parenthesis to show CSD info, it's a shorter and slightly different list but it looks like there are a lot of homophones in DSL. CSD also lists 'spak' as the past tense, so that matches up fine with the high amount of occurrences. Monospaced (tauk) 08:51, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Sommit?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: main wiki codebase e.g. Error message "Sommit went wrang"
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: something
Whit for: not in DSL

Something[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Heidwird in CSD
Collogue: Onything's better nor "Sommit" C1614 (tauk) 17:41, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Sumhin[eedit soorce]

Evidence: In CSD efter "Something", 8 mentions in Corpus [53], examples referenced in DSL [54]
Collogue: Onything's better nor "Sommit" C1614 (tauk) 17:41, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

  • Between something and sumhin, my personal preference would be sumhin. But agree onything better than 'sommit' Soothrhins (tauk) 17:54, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
    • Happy tae gan wi this. C1614 (tauk) 09:17, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Surely its something? [55] Pronunciation spellings like sumhin just show how some speakers debuccalize the 'th' and drop the 'g'. Nobody would argue that the English wikipedia should use the spelling sumfink because some speakers front the 'th' and pronounce the 'ng' as 'nk'. Nogger (tauk) 22:36, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Unthirlt?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: airticles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: Independence or independant state
Whit for: Micht no be a common wird fir this

Relatit wirds: Unthirldom.

Hame rule[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Common Scots wirds
Collogue:

  • Used more often for deolution, might nto be a suitable replacement. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 16:16, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Agree with MHS - Parliament uses this for "devolution", not "independence". Andrew Gray (tauk) 16:03, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
  • As above, only applies to specific circumstances, e.g. Irish Home Rule movement. soothrhins (tauk) 16:46, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Independence[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Corpus has Independence and Independant, maistly Inglis wi a few Scots airticles. DSL has Independent Companies, but nae Independant.
Collogue:

  • Possibly entering Scots from English due to relatively recent politics. My personal preference, but I can see why it might be debatable. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 16:16, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
  • This is the most common one I've seen, and it seems to have been used for a few decades at least. In the DSL, "independence" doesn't have an entry, but the word appears a few times in passing in example texts which are definitely in Scots, eg jouk (2000), fushionless (1988), man (1990). Andrew Gray (tauk) 16:15, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
  • I'm not convinced that the 'in-' prefix has the same meaning in Scots as it does in English, see here. Happy to be shown otherwise though. soothrhins (tauk) 16:46, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Sequestratit[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Wan hit oan Corpus, wan hit oan DSL fir Sequestrate
Collogue:

  • Doesn't really seem like "independence" to me. Feels closer in meaning to the English term "sequester". my_hat_stinks (tauk) 16:16, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
  • That's a very specific definition relating to land and law uses, I don't think it applies to the meaning here. soothrhins (tauk) 16:46, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Unthirled[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Nae hits oan Corpus, wan hit oan DSL fir Unthirl

Unthirld / Unthirldom / Unthirlit / Unthirled[eedit soorce]

Evidence: CSD has the below definitions:
thirl v. (1) "to bind with ties of affection, duty, loyalty or habit", (5) "to enthral, overwhelm, hold in bondage or servitude"
thirled, thirlit v. (1) "bound in thirlage", (2) "bound by ties of affection or duty", (3) hidebound by an idea or belief
thirlage n. (4) law "service due to a superior"
thirldom, thraldom" n. "slavery, servitude to a superior or tyrant; bondage"
un- prefix "expressing both negation and deprivation or reversal; mainly with adjectives or adverbs, but also with particles nouns and verbs..."
Collogue:

  • Some usage of related "unthirldom" on Twitter as a hashtag, but seems to have fallen out of usage. DSL hit seems a bit questionable for this context. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 16:16, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
  • "Unthirldom" was used by Salmond a couple of times (and the Herald reported it as "the Scots word for independence" as a result) but it doesn't seem to have taken off - "independence" seems more common in written Scots IME. Andrew Gray (tauk) 16:13, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Etymology isn't my expertise, but this will be the provenance of modern usage. My personal preference would be this (used only in specific circumstances that match the meaning of thirl et al), mainly due to the 'un' prefix seeming to have a stronger basis in Scots for this meaning than 'in'. But happy to be shown otherwise. soothrhins (tauk) 16:46, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
  • If the the neologism owerset for 'translate' is considered fine, as My hat stinks points out above, because it is now in modern use then surely the same applies to unthirldom? Nogger (tauk) 20:29, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
Not sure why I was pinged here, I've already weighed in on this discussion. The DSL entry you linked to does not list "unthirldom" or any variant. One politician and a dead twitter hashtag isn't exactly what I'd call common use, if you have any further evidence you should definitely provide it. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 02:29, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
The reason why the DSL does not list unthirldom is precisely because it is a neologism that appears not to have caught on as well as owerset for 'translate'. Only time will tell if it ends up in the DSL or not. It got a mention in the Herald as far back as 1993 "wi the wecht siccar on Unthirldom as the gait ti pittan richt aa the hairm an wrangs that Government frae Westminster haes gart Scotland dree" (scroll down a fair bit). It appears that it has since been in common use among those who are into that kind of thing. Whether or not that actually counts for anything is of course another matter. Nogger (tauk) 10:25, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
That article and Alex Salmond's use of the word has already been mentioned in this discussion. If you have evidence of it in common use by other people, I'd be happy to hear it. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 11:57, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Wather?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: in airticles, includin title o main airticle Wather itsel
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: anent the state o the atmosphere at a particular place an time
Whit for: mair than yin spellin in Scots

Weather[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Heidwird in CSD, in DSL [56], 312 in Corpus (but this will include English texts)
Collogue:

Wedder[eedit soorce]

Evidence: In CSD, but heidwird is Weather, referenced in DSL [57], 13 mentions in Corpus
Collogue:
Uiser:Dave souza haes raised this matter elsewhere

Wather[eedit soorce]

Evidence: In CSD, but heidwird is Weather, referenced in DSL [58], 35 mentions in Corpus
Collogue:
Uiser:Dave souza haes speired this spellin elsewhere

  • "Wather" did feel a bit off to me too, but since there's some precedent on Corpus I'm not sure it's wrong per se. I do prefer "weather" personally, though. Regardless, we should use a standard spelling for titles (whatever's agreed here) and have alt spellings redirect. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 21:29, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
  • The Dictionary of the Scots Language indicates it is Southern Scots /′wɑðər/ but also West Central "A fine ceevil wather, sur." Nogger (tauk) 19:43, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
  • (en) It seems to me this one can be settled in a similar way to heid/head-- as MHS suggested we have a standard spelling for article titles (probably "weather", as it's the headword in DSL), but agree the other spellings listed here are acceptable in articles. Probably would be best to remove the non-"wather" spellings from the AWB list in this case. James Hyett (tauk) 14:43, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Muckle Fettle[eedit soorce]

This section is for speirin on spellin wirds that if chygned can hae a lairge effect on mony ither wirds.

Plurals o measurements an amounts[eedit soorce]

Surely nae threap here: "Words referring to measurements or amounts, such as inch, fit/foot, mile, pund/pound, year, don't change their ending in the plural, eg twa mile, ten pund, fower year. But NB, day changes to days: Ah wis aff three days wi the flu."[59] C1614 (tauk) 09:30, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Cobra 3000 spotted that {{Convert}}, which is on about 4000 pages, forced plurals for amounts ("kilometers", "miles", etc) - on their request I've tweaked this so that plurals are singular by default when generated by the template. Andrew Gray (tauk) 19:30, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
User:Cobra 3000User:Andrew Gray Guid wirk! Cheers! C1614 (tauk) 20:01, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Wirds endin -ie an -y[eedit soorce]

As scrieved ablo, a collogue is needit regardin wirds endin.

Whit for: baith endins are (usually) richt, but if muckle chynges ar tae be made, it needs resolvit on whit yin (mibbe no uniform either)
Collogue:

  • (en) I'm conscious of notes that have been mentioned elsewhere that the purpose of Scots Wikipedia is not to construct language. Therefore I think care is needed on issues like thiswhich (in my opinion) are the task of a Scots Language Board, not Wikipedians. It maybe should be thought of in terms of updating the Style Haundbeuk of this Wiki. Forbye, remembering that whatever is resolved here does not preclude you from using an -ie or -y in your personal use of Scots. Soothrhins (tauk) 20:20, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Historie?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: airticles, mibbe generally an aa
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: hings fae the past
Whit for: speirin o accuraacy

History[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Needs leuked at
Collogue: No ony previous collogue Soothrhins (tauk) 20:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

  • Mebbe we soud leuk at this at the same time as ither wirds endin in -ie/-y? Monie fowks writin Scots uise -ie insteid o -y aw the time (it maks the plural o nouns an the present tense o verbs regular, an there's a guid bit o historical evidence). --Twid (tauk) 09:35, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
    • Aye, it will be similar tae when we ar leukin at wirds uisin 'ee'. Mibbe need a separate section for yins wi lairge affect on ithers? Soothrhins (tauk) 09:40, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
      • Aye, it wad be guid tae discuss some general principles an no juist individual wirds. A guid stairtin pynt micht be Andy Eagle's owerview: scots-online.org/grammar/spelling.php --Twid (tauk) 09:45, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
        • (en) Done a quick split, need to think of the format of general principle discussion at the top (afore it gets down to the word examples it affects). Soothrhins (tauk) 10:01, 28 August 2020 (UTC)


Various?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: airticles, mibbe generally an aa
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: hings that ar different fae anither
Whit for: thar is a wird more commonly uised in broad Scots

Sindry or Sindrie[eedit soorce]

Evidence: In CSD an DSL wi richt meaning[60], Corpus haes 86 mentions for sindry[61] an 23 for sindrie[62]
Collogue:

Various is in CSD and DSL an aw, wae baith attestin uise syne 16t C. Whit's 'e fettle wae this ane? Plenty o evidence for sindry/sindrie as a guid Scots alternative if that's the pynt but I dinna see a bother wae either. Monospaced (tauk) 02:49, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Pairlament ir Parliament[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: Monie political airticles (1073 occurrences o pairlament an 288 occurences o parliament) This wid affect parliament, parliament's, parliamentar, parliamentarian, parliamentary, parliaments, pairlamentar, pairlamentarians, pairlamentary, pairlaments, pairliament, pairliamentar, pairliamentary an aa

Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: (en) Legislative bodies (e.g. The Scottish Parliament), the word is well established but there are alternate spellings in Scots and it ends up in a lot of article titles so it affects the ability to link articles, etc

Evidence: DSL only has 'parliament' but CSD haes baith wae monie uises in Corpus. Scots scrievins fir The Scottish Parliament uise 'pairlament' (https://www.parliament.scot/help/79056.aspx)

DSL records 'pairliament', 'pairlament', 'perliament', 'perlyament', 'perlament' and 'perlememt'. I'm jalousin that at the time spellings like 'parliament' wad hae been pronounced wi a ~'ai' soond an aw. Jamie Smith (tauk) 07:28, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Collogue:

both spellins seem valid. If the Scots Pairlament itsel uses 'pairlament' in Scots then that ought to be the primary spellin here.--Illandancient (tauk) 15:14, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Agreed C1614 (tauk) 15:57, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
That's ma view an aw Monospaced (tauk) 23:57, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Agree. Seein as we ar tryin tae fix the styleguide o this Wiki, no whit the absolute spellin is, keepin in line wi Holyrood makes sense tae me. Soothrhins (tauk) 09:25, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


Kintras an siclike wirds[eedit soorce]

Tae start see bygone collogue here, an for reference Jamie Smith's spreidsheet on Kintra names wi references.

Breetish?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: only in airticles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: somthin pertainin to Britain
Whit for: It cannae be found in ony proper dictionar, but haes been in ither places see thir British Newspaper Archive search results)

Related wirds that wid be affected: Breitish (uised in Wikipedia:Style_Haundbeuk, text in aroon 4 airticles an the airticle title o Breitish North Americae Acts)

British[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Inconclusive, not in CSD, but does appear in Corpus and is in common uisage anecdotally
Collogue: See discussion in previous version o Mercat Cross Soothrhins (tauk) 19:15, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

  • Stuart McHardy (formerly of the Scots Language Resource Centre) uses "British" throughout his The Wey Forrit (Luath 2017). The Pairlament uses "Breetish", but only in the phrase "Breetish Sign Langage". Wikipedia:Style_Haundbeuk oddly uses "Breitish". Andrew Gray (tauk) 23:18, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Updatit evidence, it shaws in Corpus for Scots entries, ye can see that mair esily bi searchin phrases wae ither Scots wirds ('o the British', 'tae British', etc). Monospaced (tauk) 11:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Breetish[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Scots Language Centre's Warld Names in Scots

  • (en) It seems to me that the SLC document linked above should be pretty conclusive evidence for this word.James Hyett (tauk) 01:44, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Cheena? / Cheenae?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: Airticles an titles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: kintra cried "China" in english
Whit for: Micht no be the maist uised wird

Cheenae[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Alt spellin at DSL, nae hits oan Corpus
Collogue:

  • Doesn't really seem right to me, but there could be more evidence. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 22:06, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Cheena[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Wan hit oan Corpus, referrin tae the material no the kintra. No listed oan DSL. Listit in CSD fir the porcelain (ablo Cheeny alangside Chinie an China)
Collogue: No ony previous collogue my_hat_stinks (tauk) 22:06, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

  • I'v fund 11 references tae 'Cheena' in 19t and 20t century vernacular press airticles, reengin frae 1851 tae 1938. The'r another ae reference tae 'Cheeny'. Data here. Jamie Smith (tauk) 22:13, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

China[eedit soorce]

Evidence: 40 documents oan Corpus, ~8 in Scots. No listed oan DSL., also in Scots Language Centre's Warld Names in Scots
Collogue:

  • My personal preference. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 22:06, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • I prefer this spelling. Monospaced (tauk) 22:54, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • (en) It seems to me that the SLC document linked above should be pretty conclusive evidence for this word. James Hyett (tauk) 01:41, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Roushie?[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: in airticles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: The kintra Росси́я, cried as Russia in English
Whit for: Uiser nae confident in correct spellin, an 4,203 occurrences across sco Wiki

Note: Roushie haes been uised tae mean Russia an Russian if scrieved in English

Russia[eedit soorce]

Evidence: DSL references uses of Russia [63], but no usually in broad Scots. There ar Scots examples on the Corpus wi Russia (https://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/search/?word=Russia&search=Search)
Collogue:
See discussion in previous version o Mercat Cross

Roushie[eedit soorce]

Evidence: Not in DSL/Corpus, but reputed soorces here: [64] an [65]
Collogue:

Collogue:

Settled[eedit soorce]

The ablo speirins hae been settled. Meanin a undoutit case for chynge atween ane spellin an anither haes been made or a consensus for ane case ower ithers haes resolvit.

Ance in this section, speirins are kept for future reference, an tae note progress on the sindry actions needit tae fix them.

Concerning > Anent[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: airticles, mibbie wiki code an aa?
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: preposition, like wi regards tae in English
Whit for: thar is a wird more commonly uised in broad Scotsr

 Anent: Settled
Evidence: In CSD, DSL[66], 406 mentions on Corpus
Collogue:

  • A dinnae see how onybody cuid oppose this. Soothrhins (tauk) 20:38, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Far as A can see, there's twa airticles aat use "concerning/concernin" - Rembrandt an Harold Shipman an "anent" will wirk insteid there CiphriusKane (tauk) 22:23, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Head an Heid[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: in airticles aboot 132 times
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: the hing on top o yer neck (an sindry meanins)
Whit for: in CSD, but thar is a mair common Scots wird in uise

Related wirds that wid be affected: Derivative wirds, e.g. railhead

 Heid preferred, Head okay: Settled
Evidence: Heidwird in CSD for many meanings, DSL tae[67], 1300 mentions in Corpus[68]
Collogue:

  • Surely nae quarrel here? Soothrhins (tauk) 22:12, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Corpus does have a fair few hits for "head" in Scots (eg here), so it's probably not a huge deal either way. I definitely do strongly prefer "heid" though, and I'd encourage any new articles to use it instead. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 12:49, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Keeng > King[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: descriptions o royalty in airticles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: male monarch
Whit for: DSL has keeng as a variant of king, but the corpus has no keeng

  • In this reading of Matthew 18:21-35 from William Laughton Lorimer's much praised Scots Translation of the New Testament at 0:27 you can clearly hear the pronunciation keengdom and after that keeng. I find it surprising that the language used in what is perhaps one of the greatest works of Broad Scots prose to emerge from the 20th century is regarded as unsuitable for a Scots encylopedia. Nogger (tauk) 13:51, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
I appreciate the effort to find a recording, but since this is about the spelling we should keep it to that. How the word is pronounced by some speakers doesn't matter so much if there's a de-facto standard spelling, unless we're talking about IPA. Try to stick to spelling sources if you can. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 16:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
In Eppie Elrick from 1955 by William P. Milne you can find "He criet, ‘Gweed bliss’e Keeng, an' that, an' that', an' wowfft ower 'is ale." From 1961 in Tatties an' Herreen by Donald Grant "An' id's me till leid? Weel,'ere's a shiffel, 'E Keeng — id's chist wan at A hev." Those examples indicate the /ki(:)ŋ/ pronunciation is not unusual in northern varieties of Broad Scots. In William Laughton Lorimer's much praised Scots Translation of the New Testament Matthew 2:2 you'll find "Whaur is the Kíng o Jews at hes come hame eenou?" The acute accent above the i in kíng is Lorimer's way of indicating a keeng pronunciation. Nogger (tauk) 17:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
(in Inglis) I found a work on the Scottish Corpus that used the spelling "Keing". Maybe this is another spelling to consider? -Cobra! (tauk) 10:50, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
Aff topic
If there is such a thing as a de-facto standard spelling in Scots how it is determined what those are? The experts in the field who created the OU Scots Language and Culture course inform their students that Scots is a non-standard language.[69] Resources for schools inform that "you can spell Scots any way you want" (within reason of course). [70] That would indicate that the spelling keeng is perfectly acceptable pronunciation spelling. Nogger (tauk) 17:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
(en) As per the top of this page:
"The purpose o the page isnae tae be the official arbiter on Scots spellin, but the (in Inglis) 'forum' for updatin the Style Haundbeuk o this Wiki."
This is a Wikipedia (not a classroom), for it to function there needs to be some levels of consistency—especially for words that feature in the WP UI codebase, page or category titles. Scots existence as a non-standard language, is the precise reason this page exists. It allows different options to be openly discussed (and that discussion recorded) and ways forward agreed by a range of editors with different experience, knowledge and dialects. soothrhins (tauk) 17:47, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
I've collapsed part of this discussion. This page is for spelling and I've already asked that we stay on-topic. If you want to discuss how this page works or related policies you should use Wikipedia collogue:Spellin Fettle or Wikipedia:Mercat Cross. my_hat_stinks (tauk) 18:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

King[eedit soorce]

(en) This requires multiple actions to rectify. Admin support correcting article title names. Spelling correction in articles by a user competent in using WP:AWB
Evidence: Main spellin in CSD, in DSL [71] Corpus has 436 mentions
Collogue:

  • Corpus has hunnerds of kings in Scots works Illandancient (tauk) 22:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
  • 0 mentions o keengs in Corpus an aa, for related wirds too it wid be Kingdom o Fife no Keengdom o Fife Soothrhins (tauk) 23:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Moved tae settled as nae quarrel tae be had on chygne. Soothrhins (tauk) 06:53, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
  • A'll mak a stairt on AWB. No touchin links the noo; A'll wait til the article names have been chynged. C1614 (tauk) 17:11, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Done! Lee Vilenski, this micht be a guid ane tae add tae the regex leet yince the airticle names huv been chynged. C1614 (tauk) 18:40, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Actually, no done! There's hunners mair. A'll keep chippin awa. C1614 (tauk) 18:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
(in Inglis)Just to confirm, it's Keeng -> King that's being changed? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (taukcontribs) 20:41, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Aye, Keeng -> King. Best, C1614 (tauk) 20:45, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Ken this is settled, an A agree wi it, but jist noticed ESD gies 'keeng' fur 'king' an 'king' fur 'keeng'. C1614 (tauk) 10:49, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
    I have added this to AWB typos. Let me know if it needs rearranging. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (taukcontribs) 11:40, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Mair than, Less than > Mair nor, Less nor[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: in airticles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: when somthin is greater than anither
Whit for: more common usage is mair nor

 Mair nor: Settled
Evidence: specific definition in DSL (in terms of this uisage)[72], 233 occurrences on Corpus
Collogue: proactively bein actioned by C1614 (thanks!) Soothrhins (tauk) 20:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

  • Will get tae less nor, better nor, worse nor etc. the day. C1614 (tauk) 09:44, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Good spot! Updatit abuin tae reflect that. Soothrhins (tauk) 09:46, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
    • Duin. C1614 (tauk) 12:22, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Televeesion > Telly[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: aroon 1181 uises in airticles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: as the English noun 'television'
Whit for: thar is a mair common modern Scots wird in uise

Telly[eedit soorce]

(en) This has been added to the AWB Typos list. Changes need run through by a user competent in using WP:AWB. After complete we'll need to check for any stragglers.

Evidence: Not in CSD, DSL (no television either), mony examples o Scots uisin telly in Corpus[73] whar televeesion anely has yin[74]

Collogue:

Thank you so much! I'm a relative Wiki rookie, so let me know if there is anything I can do to make it easier! Soothrhins (tauk) 19:35, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
AmaryllisGardener (collogue · contreebs) Amazing! Thank you! C1614 (tauk) 20:33, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Chynged tae 'telly' in echt hunner airticles. Mair tae dae, but that's eneuch fur me the nicht. C1614 (tauk) 20:34, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
  • (en) Just a note for any learners that might be reading this. Depending on the context, the English use of 'television' isn't always just 'telly' in modern Scots, its sometimes 'the telly'. Examples in links after an English translation ("seeing television pictures" [75]) ("just like on television"[76]). If you're not sure you can ask for help on the Discord here. Soothrhins (tauk) 08:02, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
  • For vision the Dictionary of the Scots Language tells us Also Sc. forms veesion ... which unsurprisingly leads to televeesion. On page 158 of Of Sheep and Men by Robert Blackwood Robertson you'll find "... an' it's tae be on the televeesion as weel." See too. Nogger (tauk) 18:14, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Together > Thegither[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: aroon 77 uises in airticles, this will include som references though
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: jist as in the English wird
Whit for: thar is a mair common Scots wird in uise

Thegither[eedit soorce]

(en) This requires spelling correction in articles by a user competent in using WP:AWB

Evidence: In CSD, DSL[77], 384 mentions in Corpus[78], thoosands o mentions in BNA[79]

Collogue:

Through -> Throu[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: airticles
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: Inglish 'through'
Whit for: Scots alternative

Throu[eedit soorce]

(en) This requires spelling correction in articles by a user competent in using WP:AWB

Evidence: Heidwird in CSD, DSL, ESD, OSD; 545 occurrences in corpus

Collogue: Shairly nae threap here. C1614 (tauk) 20:38, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Wairds an Words > Wirds[eedit soorce]

Whar it is bein uised: generally a hink
Whit is the meanin the wird(s) ar tryin tae say: the hings we are scrievin on here
Whit for: not in DSL; worth notin that not only is this no a Scots spellin, there's no Germanic leid that haes this spellin for the descendent o Proto-Germanic *wurdą. See Wiktionary entry: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/wurd%C4%85

Wirds[eedit soorce]

(en) This requires multiple actions to rectify. Admin support in identifying uses within wiki codebase (and fixing them). Spelling correction in around 125 instances for 'wairds' and 62 for 'words' by a user competent in using WP:AWB
Evidence: In CSD an DSL (althou word is primary spelling) [80], 161 mentions on Corpus, 38 publications on NLS,
Collogue: No ony previous collogue Soothrhins (tauk) 19:47, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

  • The Scots wird is pronoounced /wɪrd/ or /wʌrd/. Monie ither wirds haes this variation atween /ɪ/ an /ʌ/ efter /w/ (e.g., 'win', 'wind'), an the modren consensus seems tae be tae write them wi 'i', no 'u' (or 'o'). The DSL lists 'wird' (an 'word'). --Twid (tauk) 09:41, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
    • Agree wi wirds. Soothrhins (tauk) 22:18, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
      • Agree, 'wirds' preferable tae 'wurds'. C1614 (tauk) 09:18, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Words[eedit soorce]

Evidence: In CSD an DSL as primary spelling [81], 1,763 mentions on Corpus but this will include English examples
Collogue: No ony specific collogue, but [Uisier:C1614] speired swift action Soothrhins (tauk) 19:47, 27 August 2020 (UTC)