Uiser collogue:Soothrhins/Placename spellin

I noticed the new Alloway page created about the town on the Forth as it came through to modify the Wikidata Alloa page and was surprised, thinking of confusion with Burns' birthplace, and even more surprised when I realised that Burns' birthplace is at Allowa here. With my limited Gaelic, the Gaelic placenames seem to sound more like the English spellings than these Scots spellings, as does actual pronunciation. This seems a broth of confusion for the two places?

Regarding the place on the Forth, I can see that Alloway is given in the SLC Gazetteer, maybe from Adair's 1681 "Mapp of Clakmanan Shire" (my image is indistinct)? The en.wiki article has Scots: Allowae with two inaccessible footnotes. But Blaeu's 1654 map has Allowa. The DSL has pre- and post-1700 entries for Alloa but none for any other spelling.

The Gazetteer is probably also the source for Kirkcoubrie which I previously raised in the Meta Damage to other projects discussion.

As placename spellings which are created here are injected into Wikidata and then consumed by wider services, my feeling is that a strong rationale is needed before introducing a distinct spelling here. Is that Gazetteer sufficient in itself, or should more be needed, such as DSL entries to demonstrate prior use? AllyD (tauk) 09:22, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[Replie]

(en)@AllyD: Hi, I'll be honest the 'Alloway' as Alloa surprised me too when I saw it first. A bit on the lead up to this, I first found a problem in placenames with Dabaittie which was spelled in a way that didn't fit with my experience of how it is pronounced in local dialect. Having checked the SLC Gazetter, it listed the above spelling which does fit with my experience how it is pronounced in local dialect. The Scottish Language Centre's does state the provenance of the Gazetter within it:

What is the map based on?

In 1994 MMA Maps in Glasgow produced The Scots Map and Guide/Cairte in the Scots Leid with an introduction by Billy Kay. It was the first map in Scots produced in modern times and derived its information from the place-names section of The Scottish National Dictionary, volume X, (Edinburgh, 1976) produced by The Scottish National Dictionary Association from research covering the previous 100 years. The map also included evidence from a large group of individual Scots academics, supporters and writers, such as the Scots Language Society, who are listed in the guide."[1]

Before comparing the lead article spelling (as part of the Editathon, I did raise the question of how authoritative it should be used as a source on the Discord channel and it was supported. Besides, I don't think (so yes a personal view) the Scots Language Centre would publish something without being confident in its content. I know if they incorrectly spelt the place I'm from I'd be upset.

All that said, that doesn't mean individual places cannot be disputed, and if you wanted to make a Collogue on the Alloway page, I'd be happy to contribute and also do some research for it. I will apologise for the speed of change, but as you are aware we collectively have a mammoth task to fix the Wiki, and my focus during the Editathon was to try and take advantage of offers for help from non-Scots speakers by identifying actions that brought about general improvements without being fluent in the language.

On links with Wikidata, I know that is important but I am not au fait with how it works. Perhaps @MJL: can help, because even before yesterday's changes there was some incorrect placenames, so if action needs taken it needs taken. Soothrhins (tauk) 11:56, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[Replie]

@Soothrins, AllyD, and MJL: I've put together a Wikidata report which has all Scottish settlements (give or take, there's a little fuzziness), their council areas, and the Scots and English names on Wikidata.

Report for all settlements on Wikidata

As above, only where Scots and English labels differ

Report for just settlements represented on Scots Wikipedia (including Scots Wikipedia page title)

There are some discrepancies already visible thanks to page moves - eg "Brudick" here is still "Brodick" on Wikidata. I'm happy to run a script to make sure any corrections here get carried over to Wikidata. Andrew Gray (tauk) 18:17, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[Replie]

@Andrew Gray: That would be very appreciated! –MJL ‐Tauk‐^☖ 18:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[Replie]

@Andrew Gray: @MJL: Sorry, just a beginner here. Will that make everything okay as per AllyD's concern? Soothrhins (tauk) 18:26, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[Replie]

@MJL and Soothrhins: It won't do everything, but it should improve matters a bit - it means that any name fixed here (eg Brodick -> Brudick) will get corrected on Wikidata so the old spellings don't persist. Andrew Gray (tauk) 18:56, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[Replie]

I've fiddled the crossmatch report to deal with cases where the pagename includes the council area (since WD doesn't conventionally include those) - there are ~100 mismatches. I'll hold off doing them for now in case @AllyD: has any further thoughts, but if not then it's ready for me to go as and when. Andrew Gray (tauk) 20:59, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[Replie]

My main concern is to protect downstream data reuse by ensuring the terms used for articles here can be shown to be used in reliable sources (rather than being, for example, someone's phonetic constructions). But consistency is crucial and Andrew Gray's proposal achieves that - thanks. AllyD (tauk) 05:57, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[Replie]

@AllyD: I've run the first batch tonight, and will do it every now and again for the forseeable future as we get the pages here sorted out. Andrew Gray (tauk) 20:59, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[Replie]

Third tweaked report to catch (disambiguator) names as well. I'll move onto non-Scottish places shortly. Andrew Gray (tauk) 10:51, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[Replie]

Soothrhins (or anyone), I'm returning to the place names worry. From my previous example, this wiki could claim that "Robert Burns wis a poet born at Allowa in 1759, David Allan wis a penter born at Alloway in 1744" (though the Allan article currently says Allowae, which link redirects to "Alloway"). These place names seem contrary to everyday knowledge.

When I look at the Dictionar o the Scots Leid for some A_ and B_ places, I find large numbers of entries showing usage both pre-and post-1700 for placenames such as Alford, Aberdour, Balmerino, Alloa, Bathgate, Berwick – but zero entries for Aaford, Aiberdour, Balmairnie, Alloway, Bathket or Berrick. By contrast Breichin figures in the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue, so seems ok for a page move. The DSL also gives some traces of the Scots name Ainster (post-1700), which matches pronunciation, but very many more entries for Anstruther, including in the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue. There are also quite a number which have no entries for either the English or the Scots names from this table.

My suggestion is a conservative one, designed to avoid over-engineered difference leaking into Wikidata and into its downstream uses. Before changing a place article to match a name in the Scots Language Centre Gazetteer, sources such as the DSL should be checked. If there is evidence there that the English placename has a long history of use, then the page should stay at that English placename and if there's also decent sources for the Gazetteer name, then it should just be noted as an alternative in the article text, as has to be done for Glesga names and the likes. AllyD (tauk) 14:43, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[Replie]

Hi Ally, will respond to Alloway points first and then wider issues.

I would query “seem contrary to everyday knowledge”. I agree that (in Scots) the place of Alloway is much better known as the English spelling Alloa; and (in Scots) the place of Allowa is much better known as the English spelling Alloway. If this was the en.wiki then it would be incorrect. I suspect what you were pointing towards, was that people with little/no Scots skills will confuse the two:

In prose, so long as the correct placename is linked I don't see a major difference with other Wikis. For example on en.wiki, Ian Skelly was "born in Manchester", it doesn't say Manchester, UK or Manchester, Kentucky. Of course in Scots wiki the example you highlight could have "Allowa, Ayrshire" or "Alloway, Clackmannanshire"
On practical steps for the sco.wiki, to save confusion I created a disambiguation page for Alloway. So somebody expecting the birthplace of Burns and ending up by the Forth has a route to Allowa.

On wider issues:

Personally, I have no doubt that the Scots Language Centre is a reputable source for modern Scots spellings, and have noted the provenance of their work above.
I've not checked every single one, but my experience is that the sco.wiki is good at redirecting English (and Gaelic where appropriate) spellings or alternate Scots names. For example Glasgow, Glesgae, Glesca and Glescae all lead to Glesga.
I do see your point about further referencing. But I'm wary too. Because when it comes to referencing, context is key. As a hypothetical example, what if a writer mentioning Alford used the English spelling because they were unaware that the Doric spelling was Aaford?
Just because English spellings have been used within Scots historically, to my mind, that does not make it a Scots spelling per se. For example, the DOST references Scots examples of London[2], yet the sco.wiki has used Lunnon for a considerable amount of time (Lunnon is also the heidwird in CSD).

~Aefauldlie, soothrhins (tauk) 23:50, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[Replie]