|This is the collogue page for discussin impruivements tae the Kirkcaldy article.
This isna a forum for general discussion o the airticle's subject.
Name/proposal tae muve[eedit soorce]
The maist famous place A think "Kirkcaldy" appears in Scots leeteratur is in whit A aye cry the "queer-like smell" poem. Thare it's spelt Kirkcaddy that seems tae me tae be less o an ee-swickin name nor whit we hae the nou. Wad oniebodie object gin A muved this page tae Kirkcaddy? Mendor 13:10, 26 Dizember 2006 (UTC)
- Kirkcaudy wi juist the ae 'd'?
- 220.127.116.11 13:08, 27 Dizember 2006 (UTC)
Juist checkit wi a couple o native Langtonians an thay pyntit oot that the queer-like smell poem wisna written bi a bodie frae Kirkcaudy; thay thairsels say Kirkcawdy in baith Scots and English. Mynd you if the author o thon poem can manage tae rhyme it wi "haddie" an "Daddy" than there maun be some sort o aa/aw alternation takkin place an the normal wey o handlin that word-medially is <au> sae aye, Kirkcaudy leuks a guid idea. Mendor 14:15, 27 Dizember 2006 (UTC)
The Place-Names of Fife (Taylor, Simon (2006). The Place-Names of Fife, Volume One. Donington: Shaun Tyas. ISBN 1 900289 77 6. Unknown parameter
|coauthors= ignored (
|author= suggested) (help)) haes a leet o thirty-three historical literary references tae the name syne 1128, maist ae them spelt different, nane spelt Kirkcaudy. Kirkcaldy is uised fae 1539, when awbody spoke Scots, no Inglis. Scots fer Kirkcaldy is Kirkcaldy. Whit wey dae we need tae mak up fause spellins fer names we hae onywey? Mutt Lunker 08:09, 12 Mey 2009 (UTC)
- For the same raison as ower monie Scots orthographical decisions - tae gar it luik deifferent frae Inglis. Gin we tak as read that "al" i Meiddle Scots wis soundit as "aw" (aiblins gie an explaination o this i the airticle) than we dinna hae a problem. I'm also no shair about chyngin the spellin o fowk's names tae "Scotticise" thaim - is wir policy no tae gae offeical names as faur as we can? Gordon Brown is gies his "passport spellin" on ithir Wikis - incudin anes for languages that dinna hae the letter "W"! Duncan Sneddon 10:40, 12 Mey 2009 (UTC)
proposal tae move tae Kirkcaldy[eedit soorce]
The "l" cam fae the original Pictish caer caled -in but, ah'd jalouse, wes left i the scrievit form efter it cam silent i the spoken (when that wes, ah dinnae ken). Nae wider rule fer Meiddle Scots.
Forby, fowk on the Wikis o ither tungs is pittin that Kirkcaudy is Scots fer Kirkcaldy, wi nae basis ither nor the Scots Wiki says sae, uncitit and wi nae grunds but, per Duncan, tae luik deifferent fae the "Inglis name". Ah'd be fer a move ae the airticle tae Kirkcaldy. Mutt Lunker 13:15, 12 Mey 2009 (UTC)
Gin Scotland haed steyed as a sinder kintra an Scots hauden as the ofeecial leid ower the years, A think that Kirkcaudy or something wad hae become the spelling juist as "al(l)" became "aw" maugre ony chynge in pronunciation. This is whit happent wi "Falkirk" tae "Fawkirk" juist for some raison ane o thaim chynged thair Scots spellin an uised a different Inglish pronunciation, an the ither cairiet ower its Scots pronunciation an kept the auld spellin. Personally A prefer "Kirkcaudy" or "Kirkcawdy" but Wiki isnae the place for promotin wir ain neologisms. Houaniver, mebbe a little bracket sayin something like "(spelt Kirkcaudy or Kirkcaudy by some Scots language enthusiasts)" refering tae us sin we are Scots language enthusiasts an oor opeenions are as important as anybodie else's. Juist a thocht tho. Scroggie 22:47, 12 Mey 2009 (UTC)
- The vocalisation o l cam aboot in 15t century Middle Scots. That is nou for ordinar written <au> ineetial, an <aw> feenal. Some fowk uises <aa> an aw. It wis, an whiles aye is, shawn wi an apostrophe. "Falkirk" wis oreeginally Fawkirk but the vocalised l cam tae be uised for tae shaw the vouel quality, whiles in wirds that didna hae a heestorical l, fae thon cam "Falkirk" an spellins lik nolt for nowt. Seein that <au> an <aw> is nou for ordinar uised A wad haud wi Kirkcaudy Ae <d> acause consonants isna for ordinar dooblet ahint dooble vouels. Whit for chynge aulder Scots spellins? Weel, gin we are gaun tae uise <au> an <aw> whaur thare wad been a heestorical l we micht as weel cairy it throu, or shoud we spell the likes o aw, caw, faut, saut, bowt an nowt etc. all, call, fault, salt, bolt an nolt etc.?
- Jimmy 09:36, 13 Mey 2009 (UTC)
Maybes wad hae become Kirkcaudy, maybes no, but it didnae. Ah cannae connect the Acts o Union tae Kirkcaldy keepin the silent l or no - shairly, if onyhing, they'd gar us tak it oot gin somehous it fashit them (the c an aw?). In Wikipedia oor opeenions is no important, verifeeability is: "Wikipedia is not the place to insert personal opinions, experiences, or arguments." Promotin new idaias and reforms fer Scots orthography is braw in ither places, but no in Wikipedia; thons but oreeginal research. Wi a guid citation though, braw. Ye're deid on aboot neologisms Scroggie.
Wi Fawkirk/Faukirk an Falkirk it's no really a like exemple as they hae different pronunciations, no juist spellin, and the "l" pronunciation's cam in, no gaen oot. Fawkirk/Faukirk (the faw or daipplt kirk) cam "Falkirk" later wi an intrusive ower-correctin "l" fae the influence o Inglis, but it's Fawkirk yet in Scots. Bi thon wey an "l" that's awready there in the spellin o Kirkcaldy ocht tae hae cam back in pronunciation wi Union but (though wi some Inglis newsreaders it aften dis!) hasnae, in Scots or Inglis.
aw, caw, faut, saut, bowt an nowt is awready the spellins in Scots. Ah dinnae ken which anes micht or michtnae haed an "l" i the past (gin that's the reasonin o the exemple) but that disnae maitter, they dinnae noo so pittin wans in maks nae sense. Likesae, an consistency o spellin/pronunciation or no, Kirkcaldy is awready the spellin in Scots an no for chyngin here. Reportin Scots placename orthographic reforms makkit elsewhere is braw, stertin them in Wikipedia isnae. Mutt Lunker 10:55, 13 Mey 2009 (UTC)
- Ah've pit oan a tag fer a citation o this spellin (as the Scots version particlarly, but ony citation if there is ane). Mutt Lunker 15:45, 14 Mey 2009 (UTC)
A ken we hae haed tribble wi a wheen o the names uised on the "Scots Language Centre" wabsteid (See kintra names on ma collogue page) but a noticed that the thay gie the Scots name for "Kirkcaldy" as "Kirkcaudy" (SLC). So A dinnae ken gin onybody thinks we can uise this as a reliable source. A wheen o the "owersettins" cause me a wee bit o tribble tho, -burgh keeps gettin owerset e'en tho burgh is a Scots wird, an some seem gey informal (e.g. The Fort for Fort William). The SLC seems tae be the anerly serious wabsteid ither nor Wikipaedia an it's "keekin-glesses" (aside: wad this wirk as the internet meanin o mirror?) Scroggie 19:04, 14 Mey 2009 (UTC)
- Ah didna ken thon wabsteid but it seems tae be wice eneuch, wi soond sponsors an awhing. Ah'd hink it gie's backin tae yer (Scroggie's) idaia o pittin "(spelt Kirkcaudy or Kirkcaudy bi some Scots language enthusiasts)". Gin the SND and/or Billy Kay's cairte can gie citations forbye, mair tae the guid (has onybdy copies tae haund?). Hooaniver, thons mibbe twa three citations tae the hunners or thoosans ye'd fin fer it scrievit in Scots as Kirkcaldy, so ah'd still hae the airticle muvit tae Kirkcaldy, but wi the Kirkcaudy mention intilt as an aside. Wid yis concord? Mutt Lunker 01:25, 15 Mey 2009 (UTC)
- I gree wi whit ye say Matt, but tak tent that thae place names is frae Billy Kay's cairt, no frae the SLC itsel. I support flittin the airtilce tae "Kirkaldy" wi a jot sayin that sum fowk spells it deifferently (seimilar tae whit we hae wi the "Norn Iron" page?) Gin a bodie haes a raicordin thing on their computer coud they pit on a soun-file o thaimsels pronouncin it? Duncan Sneddon 11:20, 15 Mey 2009 (UTC)
- A ref tae Billy Kay (or SND) actually uisin the Kirkcaudy spellin wid illustrate the pint weel (ah hivnae copies, so amnae happy to add them wioot seein them), but the SLC referrin tae them uisin it dis support that "some Scots language enthusiasts" uise it, fae a guid secondary source. Gin onybody can add the primary sources, mairs the guid, but the secondary's eneuch, naw?
- Ah kin mak WAV files on a wee racorder but ah've niver pit them on Wikipedia afore an amnae shair whit tae dae. Ah'll tak a look gin ah hae a chance... Mutt Lunker 17:10, 16 Mey 2009 (UTC)
Weel, this is a big issue, eh. Ah hink we shuild mebbes gree on a mair generic solution (Pwomont/Polmont, Glesga/Glesgae/Glasgow, Embro/Edinburgh, Aiberdeen/Aberdeen etc). Acause Scots isnae "offeecial", whit wey dae we decide whit the "correct" place name? Bit gin we can sort oot a process, then mebbes we can prevent these discussions neist time! If a body can provide a few lists o place names in Scots, mebbes we can see gin we can agree on wan ae thaim as "canonical". Bazza 08:58, 18 Mey 2009 (UTC)
- It shuidnae be sic a trauchle really as it aw biles doon, again, tae "Wikipedia is not the place to insert personal opinions, experiences, or arguments.". Ah'd concord there mibbes gey strang arguments fer chyngin spellins in Scots, but thons tae be decided ither places. Wikipedia is juist the place fer reportin this (when notable), but no fer introducin them unilaterally. Verifeeably, Kirkcaldys the orthodox spellin in Scots, an ah'd say verifeeably noo it's worth a mention i the airticle that there's ane, at least, notable promotion ae anither spellin. A few year syne gin the orthodoxy chynges, flit the airticle tae the new spelling. But no fer noo. Mutt Lunker 14:23, 18 Mey 2009 (UTC)
- An wad ye dae the same wi Glesga (flit it tae Glasgow)? Ah'm juist tryin tae wark oot a policy fir placenames in general. Ye say at "Kirkcaldys the orthodox spellin in Scots". Wha says? Wha dae we gan tae, tae fin the "orthodox spellin"? Bazza 08:10, 19 Mey 2009 (UTC)
Oot aw day, back tae ye syne oan that... Mutt Lunker 21:47, 19 Mey 2009 (UTC)
- It's juist doon tae tae the wecht ae verifeeable literarie uisage, an in Scots ah'm talkin, no Inglis. Ye'll fin a muckle bing ae Kirkcaldys, a smaitterin ae ither spellins (mair historically) an (as faur as we ken yet) but ane secondar reference (SLC) tae a Kirkcaudy wi the implication ae ane or twa primary anes (Kay probly, SND mibbes), forby the new ref i the airticle tae the play. Wurdy, aye, but a puckle tae a bing nanetheless.
- Juist fer illustratioun, twa exaimples ae braid Scots nuvels that uises "Kirkcaldy": But'n'Ben A-Go-Go (2000) bi Matthew Fitt (science-fictioun, sae wi ken it's scrievit that wey in the future!)) an the nuvella The Kingdom of Fife (chapters in Scots) fae If You Liked School, You'll Love Work (2007) bi Irvine Welsh.
- Fer a braider view tae placenames policy, in Wikipedia verifeeability, scrievit in Scots texts, is the mark, wi an emphasis tae mair modren an contemporary uisage. Fer the case ae Kirkcaldy tae Kircaudy, it's owerwhelmin, an there's nae pronunciation difference atween the twa. Fer ither placenames, it micht or michtnae be sic a scoosh. Wir policy guideline documents i the Scots wikipedia is a bit scant yet (wi a lot ae it that's straucht fae the Inglis, untranslatit) but wi oor bilingual can, we hae the Inglis anes tae draw on fer noo.
- Regairdin the city stertin wi G, ah'd hae thocht Glesca dings the lot ae them (an ah'm dumfounerit there's nae mention i the airticle) as a verifeeable scrievit form (see DSL (wi -c- an -g- versions), an Concise Scots Dictionary (which doesnae even hae Glesga as a variant)). Houaniver gin Glesga/Glescas the same basically, it likesae haes a bing ae verifeeable literarie uisage, aw as a Scots uisage, no in Inglis, lest in quotes or the like. Glasgow wouldnae be uised in braid Scots exaimples sae much, ah dout. There is exaimples like The Glasgow Gospel, scrievit i (no affae braid) Scots but wi a foreword etc. i Inglis, an itherwise scrievins some wyse alang the spectrum ae Scots tae Inglis maist ae us flit across, uisin Glasgow. Juist checked But'n'Ben A-Go-Go though, an it haes Glasgow - that wes a surprise. No sae clear cut, but Glesca is widespreid an probly predomenant, much mair sae nor Kirkcaudy.
- Back tae exaimples ae mair clearly unorthodox or less usual spellins; fer words i the text, it mibbes doesnae maitter sae much, but fer airticle titles it's gey important: per Duncan Sneddon abune, juist "tae gar it luik deifferent frae Inglis" is a gey pair reason tae chuise ane spellin ower a clearly mair conventional ane. Thon's but a cultural creenge, aye definin wir guid tung in relation tae anither. Gin we hae a word or name wi the same spellin as Inglis, Inglis wins it an we maun loss it? Een when it's oors onyweys, like Kirkcaldy? Maun we chuise a different spellin gin we hae the chice, mak ane up gin we dinnae? It maks a gowk an a pair relatioun ae wir ane leid tae tak thon peth. Mutt Lunker 10:35, 20 Mey 2009 (UTC)