|This is the collogue page for discussin impruivements tae the Scots leid article.
This is nae a forum for general discussion o the airticle's subject.
Table o contents
- 1 Sindry comments
- 2 Whit's this aboot
- 3 Fend?
- 4 Scottish Parliament Archives 16th century
- 5 How come today's Lowland Scots is so similar to standard English?
- 6 Berrick/Berwick
- 7 Wiki Conference idea at University of Edinburgh in June
Sindry comments[eedit soorce]
A' Bheurla Ghallda?[eedit soorce]
The airtin tae gd: airts til gd:A' Bheurla Ghallda, or "Unco English"! Ciamar a chanas mi Scots anns a' Ghàidhlig? Bha mi a' tuigsinn gu bheil e Albannais neo Albais, agus chan eil A' Bheurla Ghallda. ("Hou dae A say Scots in Gaelic? A thocht it wis Albannais or Albais, no A' Bheurla Ghallda." Sairy for ma scunnersome Gaelic, an A ken this is probably something for gd: tae discuss.) Mendor 18:03, 11 Augist 2005 (UTC)
- "A' Bheurla Ghallda" is richt eneuch. "Beurla" means "Babble" an "Gallda" means "fremmit" maistlins but "Lowland" in this contex. Pit the phrase inti Google an tak a look at the results. Crying it Albais wad be like cryin "A' Bheurla", Sassunais. Logical but nae richt (or nae insultin eneuch oniewey). -- 18.104.22.168 18:38, 11 Augist 2005 (UTC)
- Ahh. "Lowland babble" as agin juist "babble" — fair eneuch ;-) (Mynd you A am shuir that in ma Gaelic textbeuk Speaking Our Language it wis cryed Albais, but frae googlin the twa terms A jalouse that Albais micht be a bit o a "poleitically correct" version o A' Bheurla Ghallda? Mendor 18:55, 11 Augist 2005 (UTC)
- That's aboot the size o it. -- 22.214.171.124 20:05, 11 Augist 2005 (UTC)
To clarify (and im sorry i cant do so in Scots!) a'Bheurla Ghallda is the traditional nomenclature for lowland Scots. Albais is a recent neologism. Theres a similiar situation in Irish where Scots was traditionally referred to as 'Bèarla na hAlban' but they too have introduced a neologism - 'Albanais' - although im not sure how popularly used this latter word is.
You might not like a' Bheurla Ghallda, but have you thought of the connotations of the word "Albais", i.e that it implies it is the only language of Scotland? (As is the common and very un-pc use in English and in the name of this website!)
Vouel lenth phonemic?[eedit soorce]
For clever chiels at kens anent this kin o thing. Is vouel lenth conseidert phonemic in Scots? The exemplar that got me tae thinkin anent this wis the differ atween deid — A say [did] — an dee'd — A say [di:d]. Mendor 18:03, 11 Augist 2005 (UTC)
- The airticle Scots vouel lenth rule expoonds hou vouel lenth isna for ordinar phonemic but condeetiont bi the environ that a vouel finds itsel in.
- The /i/ in dee'd is lang acause it kythes afore a morpheme boond.
- Jimmy 10:33, 12 Augist 2005 (UTC)
Aye, A'd seen that, but shuirly that still means it's phonemic but? The'r a meinimal pair in deid an dee'd, is the no?
Whan ye say "vouel lenth isna for ordinar phonemic" dis that mean the'r exceptions? A juist ask acause A think it wad gie an interestin comeback tae fowk that says that Scots isna a separate leid frae the English. English disna disteinguish atween vouel lenths as faur's A ken -- dis it? Mendor 16:25, 12 Augist 2005 (UTC)
- Nae, it dis - "bit" /bit/ "beat" /bi:t/, "am" /am/ "arm" /a:m/ an sic 126.96.36.199 14:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Scots Leid Associe[eedit soorce]
- It's a teuch ane. Whan spikkin about them in Scots or screivin informally I'd cry them "Scots Leid Associe" but whan screivin aboot them here as a topic I think we shoud uise their legal name athoot owersettin, in the same wey that we dinna owerset the names o beuks an sae furth whan we screive aboot them. That's the wey I chynged the airtin back. Houaniver I'm nae gaun ti fash masel ower it. -- Derek Ross 18:48, 11 Augist 2005 (UTC)
Hmm. A wis thinkin anent this an aa. We aareadies hiv Scots Pairlament, Scots Socialist Pairty, Preses o the Scots Pairlament an a puckle ither airticles that isna uisin "legal" names but oor ain "unoffeicial" Scots owersettins. A wis gaunae pit up an airticle anent the Naitional Heal (Halth?) Service an aa, but that isna an "offeicial" name, an A wis wunnerin if it wad be better unner its "offeicial" teitle "National Health Service"... we'r gaunae hae tae thrash oot a policy on this A think — Mendor 20:59, 11 Augist 2005 (UTC)
- It's a rael thorny issue. I'm nae shuir o the best wey to gang masel. Mair input frae ithers wad be guid. -- Derek Ross 21:10, 11 Augist 2005 (UTC)
- A dinna see ocht wrang wi Scots versions that uises obvious Scots cognates o the English wirds. A problem wad be makkin up wirds, cleckin neologisms or uisin ither wirds in contexts whaur thay're no for ordinar uised.
- Jimmy 22:25, 12 Augist 2005 (UTC)
Just Love Scots[eedit soorce]
Hello, sorry about the English, I'm not Scottish, but I love the sound of Scots Leid reading it, and learning the unique consenant sounds. But I was wondering since you mostly seem to be in Scots communities how large they are and what type of speaking base you have. As I have had a hard time getting the jist of the article I just tried to read.
Hopping to be a Scots speaker eventually, Robert Privyet'bonnuit 19:13, 12 Julie 2007 (UTC)
- It's a tricky question to answer. Scots is very similar to English, and everyone in Scotland (outside of the Gaelic-speaking areas) is taught English at school, and not Scots. So most Scots-speakers tend to speak a mixture of Scots and English, switching smoothly from one to the other with no divide between the two. Add to that the fact that in a lot of Scotland, Scots is spoken mostly by working-class communities, and you get a language that is barely recognised by most people, even those that speak it. A lot of Scots-speakers think of themselves as English speakers, with maybe a bit of "local slang" thrown in, and are genuinely shocked (and often offended) to find that other English-speakers (such as the English) can't understand them. After all, they can understand the English fine (because they've been taught English at school, and heard it on the telly, etc).
- So, it's an odd situation. There are exceptions - the North East has a very strong awareness of it's Doric heritage, although even then, you'll find that this is sometimes not recognised as being part of the heritage of Scotland as a whole.
- So, part of the reason for this wikipedia is to give a space for Scots-speakers to express themselves without needing to resort to English, or even to "water down" their Scots. And if we can boost the profile of the language (or dialect or whatever you want to call it. I get really bored of those arguments) in the process, then great! Bazza 08:31, 13 Julie 2007 (UTC)
- Hurrah for Scots Wikipedia, keep up the good work. The historical and political background for the English and Scots languages seems to be analogous to that of the two Norwegian languages: Bokmål and Nynorsk. The exception is that Nynorsk was by law adopted as a written language in 1885, theoretically of equal status, though it is still discriminated against. Historically, the written Norwegian language effectively disappeared when the country was taken over by the Danes (1536). In the countryside people kept their dialects but were eventually required to learn to read and write Danish. All higher education was in Copenhagen. "Higher class" city people came to speak written Danish with a Norwegian pronunciation. (No one but a Dane can pronounce Danish!) The Norwegian Constitution was written (in Danish, of course) and adopted in 1814. Romantic nationalism throughout the 1800s succeeded in creating a truly Norwegian written language, but today it is written by fewer than 20% of the people, though many more than that still speak the dialects on which Nynorsk is based. (The official statistics are affected by the above mentioned discrimination. When I have to fill out a form for a public agency, I always ask for it in Nynorsk. More often than not, they just happen to be "temporarily" out of the Nynorsk version.)
- Nynorsk Wikipedia just attained its 34000th article!
- Comparing the language situations in Scotland and Norway, one could go even further and mention the minorities which use non-Germanic languages: Gaelic in Scotland and Sami (Lapplander) in Norway.
- Best wishes from Norway, where I sign myself as Hordaland.
Privyet'bonnuit, you took the words out of my mouth. 188.8.131.52 21:24, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Whit's this aboot[eedit soorce]
A know wits bein said bit bein fae glesga, "ken" isny wit a wid say, is that tae say am no a bletherer a' scots? A kin see how aw the statutes ur scriptit oot lik they ur, bit a hifty tell ye some o its double dutch. Is er nae hape fir us fae the central belt? 184.108.40.206 01:56, 11 Februar 2010 (UTC)
- Weel, mony fowk i the Central Belt ken ken, ken... Bit aye, whan ye first see written Scots it's no easy tae read, likes. Bit gie it a wee bittie time, an it maks sense. Bazza 09:44, 11 Februar 2010 (UTC)
- wit am askin is if glesgas a dialect a scots leid?
- I wad sey it is. Ither fowk micht no. The fact is there's a puckle weys o spikkin Gleswegian, mair broad or less broad. There's a wheen o fowk in Glesca spik Scots, there's a wheen disna but there's plenty fowk in the middle whaur it's a maitter o opinion. Disna really turn on whether they sey "ken" neither. There's nae dout fowk in the North-east ken and uise mair dialect words than Central belters but even there there's an awfu lot o words that naebody uises or kens onymair. Sae I wadna worry on whether onybody's spikkin Scots or no. I juist accept that they're daein their best an spikkin the wey they feel comfiest wi. -- Derek Ross | News 05:11, 13 Februar 2010 (UTC)
Will Ah fend this airticle? It's aye being vandalised... Bazza 06:38, 3 Julie 2009 (UTC)
Scottish Parliament Archives 16th century[eedit soorce]
The historic archives of the Scottish Parliaments are now on-line and searchable. Here are all, or most, of the extracts, mainly 16th century, which refer to language. Surprisingly the words Scots and English seem to be used as synonyms, with the Parliamentary records expressly stating in 1604 and 1645 that Scotland and England share one language. Well worth an on-line visit to root around in the word hoard.
12 March 1543 Legislation
It is statute and ordanit that it salbe lefull to all oure sovirane ladyis lieges to haif the haly write, baith the New Testament and the Auld, in the vulgar toung, in Inglis or Scottis, of ane gude and trew translatioune and that thai sall incur na crimes for the hefing or reding of the samin, providing alvayis that na man despute or hald oppunyeonis under the panis contenit in the actis of parliament. The lordis of artiklis beand avisit with the said writting findis the samin resonable and, tharefor, thingis† that the samin may be usit amangis all the lieges of this realme in our vulgar toung of ane gude, trew and just translatioune
Mary 1 Manuscript Scottish Parliament 1st February 1552
...prentaris in this realme that daylie and continuallie prentis bukis concerning the faith, ballattis, sangis, blasphematiounis, rymes, alsweill of kirkmen as temporall, and uthers tragedeis alsweill in Latine as in Inglis toung, not sene, vewit and considderit be the superiouris as appertenis to the defamatioun and sclander of the lieges of this realme, and to put ordour to sic inconvenientis, it is devisit, statute and ordanit be my lord governour, with avise of the thre estatis of parliament, that na prentar presume, attempt or tak upone hand to prent ony bukis, ballattis, sangis, blasphematiounis, rymes or tragedeis, outher in Latine or Inglis toung, in ony tymes tocum unto the tyme the samin be sene, vewit and examit be sum wyse and discreit persounis
19 August 1568 19 Augusti 1568 … is abone wrychtin, beand red baith in Scottis and Latein in presence of my lord regentis
22nd April 1594 Judicial Proceeding - Summon for treason
...Efter I had knokit sex severall knokis at the yettis thairof, I affixit ane autentik copie of the saidis lettres translatit in Englis [i.e from the original legal Latin] upoun ilk ane of the saidis yettis respective foirsaidis, becaus I culd not aprehend him personallie, to compeir befoir oure soverane lord and his hienes justice...
James VI to Scottish Parliment 26 April 1604 Procedure: commission; asking of instruments … within the ambit of one island, by language, customs, consent and unity of religion, …
23 July 1644 Act declareing vacand stipendes should be imployed upon pious uses … wp of youthes that have the Irishe tongue in schooles and colledges
Instructions from the parliament of Scotland to there commissionaris at London 26 November 1645
That the advantages whiche the kingdome of England hathe by his majesties royall presence and continwall residence with them, and the loisses and prejudices whiche Scotland susteinis by his majesties absence, ar so manie and great as can not be condignelie recompensed by anie retribution equivalent to so great a benefite as England enjoyes and as Scotland is deprived of. Thairfore, since by the good providence of God bothe nations are in ane illand, speake on[e] and the same language, profess on[e] and the same religion and ar united under the same head and monarch
12 May 1690 [Acts remitted to committee; petition read] … by the clerk. The lybell read in the Scotch language. The advocat resumed the lybell,
12th July 1695 Scottish parliament ...bishoprics of Argyll and the Isles, which now his majesty has been graciously pleased to bestow upon erecting of English schools for rooting out of the Irish language, and other pious uses ...
How come today's Lowland Scots is so similar to standard English?[eedit soorce]
I speak English as a second language, and I'm surprised to find Lowland Scots 80% intelligible to me, either spoken or written. Yet, Yola, another offshoot of Middle English, looks as different as Dutch is from standard English. As they branched off from standard English at about the same time, why is Scots so similar to standard English? Were there any movements during the history to maintain uniformity with English spoken in England? 220.127.116.11 06:22, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- If this question is not rhetorical, then it should probably be asked at en:Talk:Scots language. Varlaam (talk) 07:16, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- (Sorry, A cannae scrieve Scots Lied weel) It's the same wi' Spainyie an Italian leids. Similar leids, similar roots, but different lieds. Ye can translate atween 'em eithly. 17:32, 7 Februar 2013 (UTC)
Britain historically had some 40 dialects of English, roughly divided into three groups or varieties. All of these were/are the 'English Language'. Standard English invented in the 18th century is an artificial form of the English Language - a standardised form for universal use and which largely replaced regional varieties, local dialects and pick 'n' mix make-it-up-as-you-go-along spelling. Terms such as 'bad English' and 'good Engish' or 'correct English' simply mean 'correct standard 'English' etc. Lowland 'Scots' dialects are part of the Northern or Northumbrian English group or variety of English dialects whose range extends as far south as Yorkshire and the the Humber. Modern Standard English was broadly, but not exclusively, modelled on Midlands or Mercian English. Surprisingly the Southern English variety of Wessex has sunk almost without trace. Cassandra Cassandrathesceptic (tauk) 12:59, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Wiki Conference idea at University of Edinburgh in June[eedit soorce]
Hi, My name is Ewan McAndrew and I work as the Wikimedian in Residence at the University of Edinburgh. Melissa Highton (Edinburgh University's Assistant Vice Principal for Online Learning), Lorna Campbell (OER Liaison at the University of Edinburgh) and I have been discussing holding a smallish Wikipedia Conference at the university next year, potentially in June 2017.
We are keen to support projects & initiatives connected to Wikipedia that may benefit with the additional focus so we have provisionally titled the conference as ‘Our Language’ but it could also be entitled ‘the Geography of Wikipedia’.
As there will be a new Gaelic Wikimedian in Residence beginning at the National Library of Scotland while the work of the National Library of Wales Wikimedian is coming to an end & the Wikimedian at UNESCO is also doing work to support endangered languages, we felt the conference could focus on diversity; particularly in terms of linguistic, cultural & gender diversity.
The below represents our current thinking of aspects we’d like to include but is very open to further discussion & ideas. I believe we will want a mix of keynotes, smaller presentations/lightning talks, practical workshops and discussion spaces.
Aspects to be covered/included:
- Languages of Britain/Endangered Languages aspect – focus on indigenous languages (Irish, Gaelic, Scots, Cornish? Welsh (Basque? Breton?) - Find out who’s active and see if they could feasibly present.
- Wikisource could be brought in (in different languages) as we’re keen to support projects that could do with greater exposure.
- John Cummings (UNESCO – endangered languages)
- Gill Hamilton at National Library of Scotland - speak to her about Europeana (Liam Wyatt) and other cultural heritage angles.
- Cultural heritage – Wikicommons (Jason & Robin in Wales, Sara at Museum & Galleries Scotland)
- Content Translation workshop
- Tagging Welsh/Gaelic place names workshop.
- Wiki Loves Monuments
- Wiki Commons workshop – how to upload and tag with Wikidata.
- Navino Evans and Histropedia – talk & workshop.
- BBC Alba, BBC Cymru and Moving Image Archive – see if presentation and material can be released.
- Title & hashtag to be worked out. (available in all the languages being discussed)
- Alex Hinojo – Amical Wikipedia and Wikidata.
- Scottish Poetry Library.
- Scottish Studies faculty showcasing Scottish studies archive.
- Pictish translator?
- Cecil Sharp House.
- Gender within language.